[junyi_zhu]

scoob, on Sep 28 2004, 12:25 AM, said:

playing 2/1, favourable vuln.

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ Qxx ♥ xx ♦ AQxx ♣ KJxx

This is a 1D opening. I'd pass if you change the hand to xx Qxx AQxx KJxx.
Qxx in spade is a plus feature. Even if you play 2/1 and solid openings, you still should open it, because this hand has no wasted HCPs and has reasonable spades. Partner would invited with so so 12 HCP and would bid a game with good 12 which you don't really mind. 1D is clearly better than 1C because you can rebid 2C if LHO overcalls 1H and partner doubles. If you open 1C, you have no good rebid.

[inquiry]

EricK, on Sep 28 2004, 07:30 AM, said:

Perhaps someone with BridgeBrowser or equivalent can do that.

Not entirely sure what it proves, but I looked through a half a million hand records at a one of a minor opening bid wit the following requirements

1) exactly 12 hcp
2) 2 or 3 spades
3) 2 or 3 hearts
4) At least 3 diamonds
5) At least 3 clubs

this allows for
2-2-6-3, 2-2-5-4, 2-2-4-5, 2-2-3-6,
3-2-5-3, 3-2-4-4, 3-2-3-5,
2-3-5-3, 2-3-4-4, 2-3-3-5,
3-3-4-3, 3-3-3-4

Out of this 1.5 million hands, there was 30499 hands opened 1C or 1D that fall into these requirements (including the opeoning bid).. this is 2.1%. The average result was +0.046 imps for opening the minor, but only 48.9% matchpoints

But, we don't know what the average result was on these hand if the guy with 12 points had simply passed. But there are the numbers for you...

Since the request was from Bridgebrowser, that is what I used. If you like looking at bridge hands, you owe it to youreself to consider purchaing it, it really is quite amazing.

Ben

[goodwintr]

If you open the bidding on Qxx xx AQxx KJxx, then presumably you drive to game as responder with KJxx AQxx xx Qxx -- proving the validity of the ancient formula, "an opening bid plus an opening bid produces down one." Add a few tens to the hands and game prospects improve markedly; and while I don't claim to know the method, I'd bet the Rubens-Kaplan calculator would make either hand an opening bid if you give it a couple of tens.

As has often been said here, one hand (or one pair of hands) doesn't prove anything. I would only suggest that dogmatism is misplaced when it comes to deciding what to do with these marginal cases (and the original problem hand is marginal, in my view).

My partnerships would pass the original hand, because we like to have 2 1/2 quick-tricks when we open a balanced 12-count. But we certainly don't claim that we must be right and the openers must be wrong.

TLGoodwin

[Fluffy]

I have rarelly played wea NT but... isn´t it 12-14 range?

isn´t that the same range as 1♦-1X-1NT when playing strong NT?

Then what why do you consider this different range playing different systems?.

[EricK]

Fluffy, on Sep 28 2004, 11:11 PM, said:

I have rarelly played wea NT but... isn´t it 12-14 range?

isn´t that the same range as 1♦-1X-1NT when playing strong NT?

Then what why do you consider this different range playing different systems?.

A weak NT is a semi-pre-emptive weapon.

If I open 1NT then LHO has to come in at the two level. That allows us to steal a lot of part scores, and also forces opps to play a lot of inferior part scores.

If I open the same hand 1m, then I do alright if the bidding gets back to me without the opponents intervening, but I am less happy in the cases where I have allowed an easy 1M overcall.

I would say that at IMPS you have got to open these hands whatever the system because of the few missed games that would occur otherwise. But at MPs, where so many points hinge on part score hands, it might not be such a good idea without a major suit or two (unless you can bypass both majors with a weak NT).

Eric

[Free]

Pass or 1NT (weak) in natural systems...

[flytoox]

Free, on Sep 29 2004, 11:45 AM, said:

Pass or 1NT (weak) in natural systems...

free, arent you a light opener? since when did you become more conservative than me?

[Free]

flytoox, on Sep 29 2004, 01:22 PM, said:

Free, on Sep 29 2004, 11:45 AM, said:

Pass or 1NT (weak) in natural systems...

free, arent you a light opener? since when did you become more conservative than me?

Lol. I always use my judgement before I open. Usually it will result in lighter openings, but in this case I'll pass since it's an awful hand, despite the 12 HCP! I don't know what ZAR tells about such hands, but my LTC tells me to pass...

[Gerben47]

1♦, of course. My partner does not expect more.

In my weak opening system I do not downgrade this to a 9-11 NT.

This has nothing to do with 2/1 GF, which is a treatment after 1 of a major. One could also play 1♦- 2♣ as GF but this is a completely different story.

Minor suit structure is independent of what you do after the majors, because after you open a minor you won't be in your 2/1 system.

Gerben

[cherdano]

inquiry, on Sep 28 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

Rule of 20 - I woud open, Zar points I wuuld not. Playing weak 1NT I would open, playing roth stone I would not.

If I open i would open 1C, not 1D.Why?

If partner bids 1D over 1C, I will bid 2D
If parntre bids 1H ove 1C, I will bid 1NT
If partner bids 1S ove 1C, I will bid 2S

If I open 1D, I will not be bidding 2C so, why open the higher suit? I have a better chance of finding our minor suit fit with a 1C opening bid.. .

That's all correct, but only if your style allows to raise 1♠ with 3cd support. If not, then there is something to be said for opening 1♦, as you can rebid 2♣ over 1♠, or after
1♦-(1♠)-X-(PASS).

Btw, I much prefer being given the precise hand instead of all those 'x'. If the hand is Q32 32 AQ32 KJ32 I might pass it, while I would certainly open Q98 32 AQ96 KJ87.

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Sep 29 2004, 10:54 AM, said:

inquiry, on Sep 28 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

Rule of 20 - I woud open, Zar points I wuuld not. Playing weak 1NT I would open, playing roth stone I would not.

If I open i would open 1C, not 1D.Why?

If partner bids 1D over 1C, I will bid 2D
If parntre bids 1H ove 1C, I will bid 1NT
If partner bids 1S ove 1C, I will bid 2S

If I open 1D, I will not be bidding 2C so, why open the higher suit? I have a better chance of finding our minor suit fit with a 1C opening bid.. .

That's all correct, but only if your style allows to raise 1♠ with 3cd support. If not, then there is something to be said for opening 1♦, as you can rebid 2♣ over 1♠, or after
1♦-(1♠)-X-(PASS).

Btw, I much prefer being given the precise hand instead of all those 'x'. If the hand is Q32 32 AQ32 KJ32 I might pass it, while I would certainly open Q98 32 AQ96 KJ87.

Well, my opening choice of 1C as opposed to 1D is influenced by three specialized agreements I play.

1) 1C-(1H)-DBL is with most partners, denial of spade suit. So I can bid a non-forcing 2D

2) 1C-(Pass)-1S-(Pass)-2S = frequently 3 card support (I raise with support, the tiems I don't raise here wiht three card support I am generally 3334)

3) With misho, I play 1C-(1H)-DBL as showing spades, so I can bid 1♠ with a straight face. This 1S rebid promises only 3S and a minimum hand

4) IC-(1S)-dbl with misho I play as a balanced hand or a hand with diamonds. So I can bid 1NT without fear. So once again I have no rebid problem. I bid 1NT and he raises, passes or shows his diamond suit.

As an aside... if I didn't have these agreements, and if I opened 1C or 1D and partner doubled a 1H overcall (presumably showing spades), I would bid 1S anyway.

[junyi_zhu]

cherdano, on Sep 29 2004, 02:54 PM, said:

inquiry, on Sep 28 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

Rule of 20 - I woud open, Zar points I wuuld not. Playing weak 1NT I would open, playing roth stone I would not.

If I open i would open 1C, not 1D.Why?

If partner bids 1D over 1C, I will bid 2D
If parntre bids 1H ove 1C, I will bid 1NT
If partner bids 1S ove 1C, I will bid 2S

If I open 1D, I will not be bidding 2C so, why open the higher suit? I have a better chance of finding our minor suit fit with a 1C opening bid.. .

That's all correct, but only if your style allows to raise 1♠ with 3cd support. If not, then there is something to be said for opening 1♦, as you can rebid 2♣ over 1♠, or after
1♦-(1♠)-X-(PASS).

Btw, I much prefer being given the precise hand instead of all those 'x'. If the hand is Q32 32 AQ32 KJ32 I might pass it, while I would certainly open Q98 32 AQ96 KJ87.

you can rebid 1NT easily. who said 1NT rebid needs unbid suits stopped or semi-stopped? hehe.
ALso, if you do play NT rebids guarantee unbid suits stopped or half stopped, you will often face hands unbidable. Suppose you hold SAQx Hxxx DAKx CAQxx, you would be completely out of bid if your partner bid 1S over your 1C opening.
Change the hand to AQx xx AKxx AQxx, you'll be out of bid as well. 2NT would be the only right bid for these two cases.

Still, if you rebid 1NT, you would have no problem at all to find the best game or slam because you can then use two way nmf, which is one of the most powerful gadgets in bidding. And you can often find the best partial as well if your partner holds a weak hand, very long in the unbid minor. You might not find the best partial only when your partner holds 5-3-3-2 shape, weak spades and decides to pass your 1NT and that's no big deal. You might be wrong sided in 3NT sometimes, after 1D 1S 1N 3N, but who said 3NT has to be played by partner? your partner might hold short clubs and HAK, in that case, you really want to declare. Or your partner holds Hxxx, but opps didn't find heart lead! So positional issue should never be more important than describing your overall strength and shape.

Also, over 1D 1S , I feel 2S is an awful raise because you have no singleton.
You may often belong to 1NT when partner's spade is weak. And
there is no way for you to describe your hand if you raise 1S to 2S and partner happens to hold 4 card spades, because there are just too many balanced hand types, even a relay structure can't show them all.
I am not against three card raise, but I raise only when I have shape and I do have a relay structure to show all these different hand types. Also, if there is some kind of structure can also show this kind of balanced hands with 3 trumps, please show me. Thanks.

[jtfanclub]

Fluffy, on Sep 28 2004, 06:11 PM, said:

I have rarelly played wea NT but... isn´t it 12-14 range?

isn´t that the same range as 1♦-1X-1NT when playing strong NT?

Then what why do you consider this different range playing different systems?.

What makes you think you'll get a chance to bid 1NT?

If the bidding goes 1NT (2H), my partner has an excellent idea of what I have and can easily place the contract.

If the bidding goes 1D (2H), my partner doesn't have the slightest clue what I have. If he's sitting with a 4-3-2-4 9 count, should he X? Or bid 2NT (if he has the stopper)? Or pass?

[junyi_zhu]

jtfanclub, on Sep 29 2004, 10:18 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Sep 28 2004, 06:11 PM, said:

I have rarelly played wea NT but... isn´t it 12-14 range?

isn´t that the same range as 1♦-1X-1NT when playing strong NT?

Then what why do you consider this different range playing different systems?.

What makes you think you'll get a chance to bid 1NT?

If the bidding goes 1NT (2H), my partner has an excellent idea of what I have and can easily place the contract.

If the bidding goes 1D (2H), my partner doesn't have the slightest clue what I have. If he's sitting with a 4-3-2-4 9 count, should he X? Or bid 2NT (if he has the stopper)? Or pass?

I am talking about non-competitive situations, some said opener can't rebid 1NT and some said 2S is a good bid over 1D p 1S p 2S. For competitive situations, it's a different story. Still, you are not totally out of bid over 1D 2H x p. You may meet serious problems over 1D 3H x though, but it's not the reason you don't open 1D. And you may be even worse placed if you pass and it goes like "p 2H x p ?" or "p 3H x p ?". So "1D 2H x p ?" is not the reason you don't open 1D. Also, your partner knows you hold 4 or more diamonds and have an opening hand over 1D 2H, not as what you said, "my partner doesn't have the slightest clue what I have". And I didn't mention the possiblility that 1NT may get doubled and go down 3 when opps have no game at all, and I didn't mention that you may lose your 4-4 spade fit when you open weak 1NT with four spades and I didn't mention that you may even lose a cold minor suit slam when you have no good gadget, or there is no good gadget even available in this world over weak 1NT opening, as all weak NT preachers didn't mention.

[pbleighton]

junyi_zhu writes
"And I didn't mention the possiblility that 1NT may get doubled and go down 3 when opps have no game at all, "

Never been down 3 when they didn't have game, down 2 plenty, but very rarely play doubled, with a runout.

"and I didn't mention that you may lose your 4-4 spade fit when you open weak 1NT with four spades"
True.

"and I didn't mention that you may even lose a cold minor suit slam when you have no good gadget, or there is no good gadget even available in this world over weak 1NT opening, as all weak NT preachers didn't mention."

You can play either minor suit transfers (which I do) or 2D as GF extended Stayman. In fact, you can play anything over a weak NT you play over a strong NT.

Peter

[luke warm]

goodwintr, on Sep 29 2004, 12:29 AM, said:

If you open the bidding on Qxx xx AQxx KJxx, then presumably you drive to game as responder with KJxx AQxx xx Qxx -- proving the validity of the ancient formula, "an opening bid plus an opening bid produces down one."~~snip~~

actually no, over 1nt i bid 2c... then over his probable 2d i bid 2nt, which shows a balanced invitational hand with 4/4 in the majors

[goodwintr]

This may be a bit off-topic, but: Lukewarm, if you think the hypothetical responding hand is only invitational, not a game drive, opposite a weak notrump, "Keri" handles it better than Stayman. The Keri technique would be to transfer to 2H, then rebid 2S, showing invitational values and both majors, with spades at least as long as hearts. On the hypothetical deal, this would land you in two spades, which looks like a better contract than 2NT.

In general, Keri seems to have some advantages over Stayman when responder has invitational strength.

TLGoodwin

[luke warm]

it's true, i couldn't play an invitational 4/4 in 2 of the major... and it's also true that 2M *might* be a better contract than 2nt (with 4432 vs. 3244)... then again, it might not be...

keri may well be superior, i think posting some hands to see how both treatments bid them is the best way... i do know that my invitational 2c can show all 4/4 M, all 4/5 M, all nt invites, all weak hands (including 2d), etc.. keri can too, i'm sure... in addition, sometimes it's good to know immediately when you're in a gf auction