[jillybean]

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How would you bid this?

[nigel_k]

Assuming standard methods I would bid:

1♦-1♥
3♣-3♦
4♥-5♣
5♦-5♥
6♥

After 4♥ I think North is clearly worth another move. 4♠ would be wrong since we shouldn't cue bid a king where partner is known to be short so the choices appear to be 4NT and 5♣. There could be two key cards missing or we could be off the top two diamonds. The advantage of 5♣ is that we can invite slam by bidding 5♥ over 5♦ and still stay out of some slams off two key cards. If partner has the top two clubs he will know we are short there and can evaluate accordingly.

[Mbodell]

I could see 2nt-4♦-4♥ all pass as a possible auction.

[MrAce]

jillybean, on 2011-July-31, 19:57, said:

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How would you bid this?

1♦--2♥ ( 6♥ invitational)

2NT --3♣ (Forcing - stiff)

4NT--5♣ (rkcb 1403)

5♦--5♠ (Q query - yes nd ♠K)

6♦--6♥ (♦ Q or doubleton for 7 ?- No ty)

Mbodell, on 2011-July-31, 21:23, said:

I could see 2nt-4♦-4♥ all pass as a possible auction.

N hand is way too good to texas and pass over a 2NT opening. He needs to make a move, an invitation showing pd that he has 6♥ + ♣ stiff. After that S will go easily. Even a simple xfer followed by 4♥ will do it.

[Cyberyeti]

This type of hand is a problem in standard methods. Our auction would be

1♦-1♥
2N(GF unbalanced)-3♦(would normally bid 3♣ on most hands, this shows 4♦)
3♥(exactly 3 hearts and almost certainly 4351/1354)-3♠(spade control)
3N(spade control)-4♣(club control)
4♠(KC)-5♣(1/4)
5♦(Q?)-5♠(yes and K♠)
5N(anything else)-6♥(club control was a singleton not K, no diamond honour)

in standard I guess you'd have to bid

1♦-1♥
3♣-4♦
4♥-4♠
4N-5♦
6♦

On our side of the pond, 3♣ while good is not GF for everybody. You'd bid 3♦ on xxxx, AQxx, xx, xxx or 3♥ on xxxx, KQxxxx, x, xx and partner might pass, so 4♦ seems right.

This hand is much easier if 3♣ is GF, and you can just bid 3♦ over it after which partner bids 3♥ and you're off to the races.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-01, 02:56, said:

This type of hand is a problem in standard methods. Our auction would be

I agree

Quote

1♦-1♥
2N(GF unbalanced)-3♦(would normally bid 3♣ on most hands, this shows 4♦)
3♥(exactly 3 hearts and almost certainly 4351/1354)-3♠(spade control)
3N(spade control)-4♣(club control)
4♠(KC)-5♣(1/4)
5♦(Q?)-5♠(yes and K♠)
5N(anything else)-6♥(club control was a singleton not K, no diamond honour)

Since Cyber's 2NT! rebid is not forcing for me, enter the GGG ( Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget ): 2♠ jumpshift rebid, maybe artificial, but establishes a gameforce over a 1♥ Response .
Again, this is not standard:
1♦ - 1♥
2♠! - 2NT! ( asks for clarification )
3♥ ( 3h, 5+d, no 4s ) - 3♠ ( and we are at the same point as Cyberyeti ) etc,etc.

[VM1973]

Holding more quick tricks than losers, I tend to open 2♣ and assuming partner bids either 2♥ (positive, natural) or 2NT (shows hearts since 2♥ = negative) it's hard to imagine not finding slam.

[helene_t]

It will probably start
1♦-1♥
3♣-3♥
and now unfortunately South does not have a way to set hearts as trump. She will have to start with a nebulous 3♠ call
3♠-3NT
4♥
and this hopefully conveys the message of a better heart raise than a direct 4♥. So now North must make a move
...4NT
blah-5NT? this means we have all keycards and is asking for extra features
6♦?-6/7♥
Not sure what 6♦ should show here. If it just shows the king then North should not bid 7, if it shows more then of course South should not bid it. But I can imagine that I would end up in 7 with one of my regular partners if we had a misunderstanding about 6♦. Actually I think that 6♦ should show at least AKJ, maybe even AKQ, since if all North needs was the king then he could have asked for kings with 5♠ instead of the general grand slam try.

These methods are not optimal, South should have a way to set trumps in a forcing way at her 3rd turn.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2011-July-31, 19:57, said:

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How would you bid this?

seems easy 6d.....rest harder

[Flem72]

jillybean, on 2011-July-31, 19:57, said:

How would you bid this?

Like Edgar and Norman:

1D-1H
2C*-2H**
3S***-BW...
6H or 7H

* = 1RF, strength, not neccesarily length, 5+D
** = 5+ H, ambiguous as to strength, forcing
*** = monster hand with H support and short S

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[mikeh]

This is the B/I forum and we find all kinds of posts suggesting idiosyncratic treatments to handle a perfectly normal, albeit not easy, hand type.

Opening 2N is, to be gentle, odd with such a suit-oriented hand, that has no possible rebid problem.

Using 2N as our rebid to show an unbalanced hand is not exactly mainstream, nor likely to be of assistance to the B/I readers amongst us.

Using a 2♥ response as 6 cards invitational is noce when we have that hand, but, once again, not exactly normal.

To me, there is nothing really weird about the hands, tho I don't claim that responder's second call is easy.

The start is:

1♦ 1♥
3♣ game force, showing, ostensibly, 5=4 or better in the minors, a very good 18 or more hcp.

Now responder has a choice. It seems tempting to bid hearts again, but this hand shouts diamonds.....when my partner jumpshifts into 3♣ and I hold 4 card support for her main suit and a stiff in her second, with controls in the side suits, I want partner to know I like diamonds. Now, 3♦ doesn't yet say 'I like diamonds', but I intend to keep bidding, and then that will make it clear that I wasn't merely preferencing.

So I bid 3♦, over which opener patterns out with 3♥.

Now, as responder, I picture either 1=3=5=4 or 1=3=6=3 with, in the second case, a hand unable to make any natural forcing bid at her second turn. Either way, I LIKE my hand, altho the spade K appears to be wasted. I am picturing something like x Kxx AKQxx AQxx, altho on a bad day it may look more like x Kxx AQxxx AKQx.


In any event, I am now interested in a heart slam. I think I will just use keycard in hearts.....yes...on a bad day I will find out we are off two keys and maybe they get a diamond ruff, but life is imperfect. This is sufficiently unlikely that I consider that I have 5 level safety, which is a prerequisite for keycard.

Partner will surprise me with the 4 keycard response and now I have to consider whether grand can make.

A Kxx AKQxx Axxx? While some would open 2♣, to me that is a perfectly acceptable 1♦, so grand can be (almost) cold. I let partner into the secret by bidding 5N....if she has AKQxx in diamonds, she should leap to 7♦ (not hearts...i can always correct).

As it is, she bids 6♦ and I sign off in 6♥.

My auction, which entails no artificialty beyond keycard, is:

1♦ 1♥
3♣ 3♦
3♥ 4N
5♣/♦ 5N
6♦ 6♥

I put 5♣/♦ to allow for either 0314 or 1430 blackwood

I know it may go against the grain to not rebid those hearts, but sometimes we need to recognize how much easier life is when we 'support with support', especially when we can see, at our second turn, that the hands have slam potential...we think, initially, in diamonds. When you are thinking about a cooperative slam probe, don't worry too much, initially, on fiding a second slam suitable trump suit....concentrate on telling partner that you have at least one slam suitable trump suit as soon as you can...the second suit can often come into focus soon enough, as it does here. Which is no surprise, given that you have left 3♥ open via your 3♦.

[semeai]

mikeh, on 2011-August-02, 11:55, said:

[... 1D-1H;3C-3D;3H-? ...]

In any event, I am now interested in a heart slam. I think I will just use keycard in hearts.....yes...on a bad day I will find out we are off two keys and maybe they get a diamond ruff, but life is imperfect. This is sufficiently unlikely that I consider that I have 5 level safety, which is a prerequisite for keycard.

A very nice discussion and auction. To add one more thing you left slightly implicit: another benefit of bidding 3D and not 3H is that it's the lowest accurate bid, leaving more room for the rest of the auction.

Just one point I'm not certain of: why is 4NT keycard for hearts and not diamonds? We've agreed diamonds but not (yet) hearts and I could easily want to bid keycard for diamonds with Axxx KQxx Qxxx x or many other hands. I suppose I can bid 4D and then 4NT if I want to bid keycard for diamonds (assuming we have no minorwood agreements here in B/I), but I'm not sure that's enough to make 4NT direct keycard for hearts instead of diamonds without careful agreements.

Even if 4NT is keycard for diamonds instead of hearts, your auction stands up almost as well.

[semeai]

Answering my own question: perhaps we haven't agreed diamonds with 1D-3C;3D 1D-1H;3C-3D, which could just be a noise with a hand without direction, so 4NT is keycard for hearts (added: after 1D-1H;3C-3D:3H) as the last bid suit with no agreed suit yet, and we would need to bid 4D to clearly agree diamonds. Do others agree with this?

[helene_t]

semeai, on 2011-August-02, 13:03, said:

Do others agree with this?

yes, although 6-ace blackwood applies here if you play it.

[mikeh]

semeai, on 2011-August-02, 12:59, said:

A very nice discussion and auction. To add one more thing you left slightly implicit: another benefit of bidding 3D and not 3H is that it's the lowest accurate bid, leaving more room for the rest of the auction.

Just one point I'm not certain of: why is 4NT keycard for hearts and not diamonds? We've agreed diamonds but not (yet) hearts and I could easily want to bid keycard for diamonds with Axxx KQxx Qxxx x or many other hands. I suppose I can bid 4D and then 4NT if I want to bid keycard for diamonds (assuming we have no minorwood agreements here in B/I), but I'm not sure that's enough to make 4NT direct keycard for hearts instead of diamonds without careful agreements.

Even if 4NT is keycard for diamonds instead of hearts, your auction stands up almost as well.

You make some valid points, including a nice catch on the space-saving nature of the 3♦ bid...I actually wrote 2 more paragraphs in my original post and then deleted them in order to make my post brief Oh well...one of the points I almost made was precisely that 3♦ caters to 1=3=6=3 as well as 1=3=5=4.

As for why 4N here is keycard, I assumed that in the B/I (and i don't mean this in a condescending way, I suspect the same holds true for many if not most experts and advanced), 4N as keycard would be assumed to be for the last suit suggested as trump, and, here, opener's 3♥ would suggest trump.

I also agree, 100%, that 6 card keycard works well on hands like these, where two suits have been bid and raised. For the benefit of thos unfamiliar with the concept, where we bid and raise two suits, we will frequently have holdings such as Axxxx opposite Kxx .... where the x's are any cards. Say we have bid and raised diamonds, but have now fixed on hearts as trump. We'd very much like to find out if we have AQxxx or Axxxx opposite our Kxx, and so on, yet our regular keycard won't help us in diamonds.

The responses to 6 card keycard are:

14/30 2/5 with 0 Qs, 2/5 1Q, 2/5 both Qs.

Over a 14/30, next step asks: 1st step 0Qs, 2nd step 1Q, 3rd step 2Q's no side K, and so on.

On the example I gave where grand is good: opener has A Kxx AKQxx Axxx, and 4N is 6 card keycard, opener bids 5♠, showing 5 keycards and one of the red Queens, and responder has an easy 7N call.

[nigel_k]

I don't agree that 3♥ over 3♦ is necessarily 1354 or 1363. I would bid that way with xx Kx AKQxx AQJx.

I also don't agree with 4NT over 3♥ being keycard for hearts or diamonds. It should be quantitative. But if it is Blackwood, then it ought to agree hearts. After the 3♥ call, responder cannot have a hand that wants to ask for aces and play in diamonds because they would have bid 4♦ the round before.

[mikeh]

nigel_k, on 2011-August-02, 14:38, said:

I don't agree that 3♥ over 3♦ is necessarily 1354 or 1363. I would bid that way with xx Kx AKQxx AQJx.

I also don't agree with 4NT over 3♥ being keycard for hearts or diamonds. It should be quantitative. But if it is Blackwood, then it ought to agree hearts. After the 3♥ call, responder cannot have a hand that wants to ask for aces and play in diamonds because they would have bid 4♦ the round before.

You hit upon another topic I initially wrote about and then deleted So much for trying to be brief!

I'd be interested in comments about what 3♠ would mean after 1♦ 1♥ 3♣ 3♦.

I would assume that it is a try for 3N, usually denying a spade stopper, and hence something like your 3♥ possibility....indeed, in my deleted post I used Jx Jx AKQxx AKJx as my example.

Bridge bidding is all about compromise....we will frequently have to decide upon a meaning for a particular call in a particular sequence such that we end up not being able to use it for reasonable alternatives. Thus, over 3♦, we need to decide what our 'stall' bid is....if we choose that 3♥ would be a stall, with xx or equivalent in spades, then we can use 3♠ for a specific and different meaning. To me, the gain from being able to bid 3♥ to show real support (since responder will frequently choose to bid 3♦ with say 5=3 reds) is so important that I would suggest loading the 3♠ call with the stall load rather than leaving responder unclear as to whether hearts are a viable trump suit.

Add to this the fact that sometimes our decision to jumpshift is based on the fact that we hold 3 good hearts....thus upgrading our hand, and the advantages of 3♥ showing 3♥s is even more clear, and I wouldn't choose to muddy the waters by using it on the rare 2=2=5=5 no spade stop.

Finally, on your given hand, I would open 2N:) The 5th diamond warrants the upgrade and while I dislike the xx spades and the 54 shape, I'd be sufficently worried about a 1♥ response, endplaying me in the auction if not now, then later, that I'd bid 2N now, and hope.