[jet999]

Thanks for your vote

[1eyedjack]

For me, 3NT agrees Spades.
And I don't play Gerber.
When a major suit is agreed, 4NT is quant if there is an alternative route to RKCB but not otherwise.

[Phil]

edited

[fromageGB]

I think in essence it depends on what 3NT means for you. If it defines a range of points then there is an argument for it being quantitive, but opener is not likely to have a flat hand, and what he wants to know about will be best given by ace asking.

I don't have a meaning for a 3NT response - just an unused potential bid looking for an owner. 6 tricks in a solid minor?

[inquiry]

Before I vote, what is the meaning of 3NT?

The real answer to this question is 4NT is whatever you and your partner agrees to. So I think what we will be discussing is what should 4NT mean.

If 3NT is balanced something, with some range of hcp without implications of spade support, btw, itis quantitative for sure (for me and my partners).

[FrancesHinden]

How can I answer without knowing what 3NT means?
If it shows a balanced hand ("to play") then 4NT is quantitative.

[Cyberyeti]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-July-30, 13:17, said:

How can I answer without knowing what 3NT means?
If it shows a balanced hand ("to play") then 4NT is quantitative.

We play it precisely 3343/3334 13-15 so partner knows he's facing exactly 3 spades. Still quantitative ? and does it matter whether you play 4 or 5 card majors here ?

I think we'd play 4N quantitative as we play 4 card majors and would cue to agree spades, but I don't think it's so clear if you play 5 card majors.

[MrAce]

Regardless of what it shows, natural or fit with a balanced hand, i play 4NT quantitative. It doesn't make sense to me to play RKCB since i could do this simply by cueing at 4 level and then bid 4NT. Why would i use 4NT for RKCB here too ? Pd having 3 card or 4 card fit 4333 kinda hands doesnt mean we will ALWAYS have hands where we know if we wanna stay in game or we want to go slam. There are hands in between even when 3NT shows a fit.


Lets say we have AQxxx Kx QJx AJx, i would like to bid 4NT as invitation even if pd showed a balanced hand and 3 cards fit.

[AlexJonson]

RKC. I am not smart enough to progress a quantitive auction here.

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-July-30, 15:33, said:

We play it precisely 3343/3334 13-15 so partner knows he's facing exactly 3 spades.

fwiw, I hate this treatment and always wonder why it is printed as standard on the acbl cc's.

[Hanoi5]

I voted Q but if 3NT is support for spades then it's KC.

[blackshoe]

jillybean, on 2011-July-30, 16:39, said:

fwiw, I hate this treatment and always wonder why it is printed as standard on the acbl cc's.

Huh? What makes you think that?

[jillybean]

jillybean, on 2011-July-30, 16:39, said:

fwiw, I hate this treatment and always wonder why it is printed as standard on the acbl cc's.

blackshoe, on 2011-July-30, 18:58, said:

Huh? What makes you think that?

I mean it is printed 3NT ____ to _____ and "everyone" plays it as 13-15 3 card support.
I don't know what is the best use for it (1♠:3N void splinter & 1♥ 3N maxi ♠ splinter perhaps ) but some balanced, gf range isn't it imho.

[BunnyGo]

jillybean, on 2011-July-30, 21:12, said:

I mean it is printed 3NT ____ to _____ and "everyone" plays it as 13-15 3 card support.
I don't know what is the best use for it (1♠:3N void splinter & 1♥ 3N maxi ♠ splinter perhaps ) but some balanced, gf range isn't it imho.

If you play that it is exactly 3 card support with a 4333 hand and GF pts, then it is alertable. In fact the box on the ACBL card that should be marked is the "3nt" special meaning box.

[jdeegan]

Wow! Reminds me of the night Jake and I invented the Jacoby 2NT. Jake had been using the 3NT bid as his strong raise in the majors on the grounds that it was an idle bid. I convinced him that playing 5 card majors, 2NT was almost an idle bid (you need the right 2-3-4-4 for it to be the optimal call, but with that holding you can temporize). And, of course, you save a huge chunk of bidding space by using 2NT. The rest is history.

Johnny Gerber was a genius for inventing the 4♣ ace asking bid. In its day it was a godsend. Every little old lady and clueless customer in the land knew 4♣ was always Gerber. Anyone with half a brain could engineer an effective slam auction sitting opposite a semi-comatose partner.

Things are so much better now. Almost half the responders to this poll (who are no doubt excellent bridge players) seem to think 4NT is some sort of ace asking bid. Of course, it matters not since 3NT is the same idle bid it was half a century ago.

Gee! I wonder if there might actually be a useful use (sic) for this idle bid?????

[1eyedjack]

jdeegan, on 2011-July-31, 02:30, said:

Gee! I wonder if there might actually be a useful use (sic) for this idle bid?????

Solid 7 card minor, void support, and nothing outside?

[blackshoe]

BunnyGo, on 2011-July-30, 23:06, said:

If you play that it is exactly 3 card support with a 4333 hand and GF pts, then it is alertable. In fact the box on the ACBL card that should be marked is the "3nt" special meaning box.

Precisely. This is discussed in the Bulletin series on how to fill out the system card.

3NT as a 4333 GF raise with 3 trumps is part of Bergen raises.

The black colored 2NT and 3NT lines under major suit (and minor suit, for that matter) raises are for natural bids, without support.

[jdeegan]

1eyedjack, on 2011-July-31, 05:02, said:

Solid 7 card minor, void support, and nothing outside?

Can't remember the last time that particular problem came up. Keep on trying, though. Idle bids are the Devil's workshop. I am thinking the initiation of a relay sequence. Sorta like the good old JTB responses.

[gwnn]

I knew I was going to vote quantitative even before I saw the auction. The point is valid, though, that it depends on the meaning of 3NT.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

blackshoe, on 2011-July-31, 05:33, said:

Precisely. This is discussed in the Bulletin series on how to fill out the system card.

3NT as a 4333 GF raise with 3 trumps is part of Bergen raises..

I assume this 3NT range is 13-15 ??
Thus, 3NT! is a Sp raise. If Opener next bids 4C, 4D, or 4H , those would be Ctrl Cue bids for Sp as trump.... Afterwards, 4NT would be RKC for Sp.
( a la 1eyedjack in post # 16 ) .

So, the immediate 4NT should be reserved as Quantitative:
1S - 3NT!
4NT = Quant