[Raff90]

♠ A T 8 5 3
♥ K J T 3 North starts the Auction with 1 Spade. Is there a possibility to find out if North got the Jack of diamonds?
♦ K 6
♣ T 8



♠ K 4
♥ A Q 9
♦ A Q 9 3 2
♣ A K Q

[MrAce]

Tuff hand for natural systems to bid , perhaps artificial symetric relays and denial cue bids can scan all the way down to jacks.

7♥ looks like best contract. 4-2 or better ♥ + 4-2 or better ♠ (or if someone has 5♥ we need him to have 2♠+3♦+3♣ )

7 NT needs either friendly ♦, or ♠ QJ dropping, or 4+♦ and 4♠ or QJ ♠ in same hand.

[vianu2]

Raff90, on 2011-July-29, 00:38, said:

♠ A T 8 5 3
♥ K J T 3 North starts the Auction with 1 Spade. Is there a possibility to find out if North got the Jack of diamonds?
♦ K 6
♣ T 8



♠ K 4
♥ A Q 9
♦ A Q 9 3 2
♣ A K Q

1♠-2♦
2♥-3♣
3♦-3♥
3♠-4♦ (rkc in ♦)
4NT(2 w/o queen)-5♦ (spiral scan for k♥)
5♠ (k♥no k♣)-6♠ (spiral scan for J♦)
6NT no J♦

[Zelandakh]

1S - 2D
2H - 2N (assuming 2D is GF)
3N - 5N
6N perhaps?

[Raff90]

we bid:
1S - 2D
2H - 3C
3D - 4D
4H - 4S ( RKC Diamonds )
5D - and then i had to choose if i wanna play 6 or 7.
So at this point it would really have been nice to ask for the jack of diamonds.
Maybe 5 Spade asking for it?
Germany obviously bid 7NT versus us

[vianu2]

Raff90, on 2011-July-29, 04:06, said:

we bid:
1S - 2D
2H - 3C
3D - 4D
4H - 4S ( RKC Diamonds )
5D - and then i had to choose if i wanna play 6 or 7.
So at this point it would really have been nice to ask for the jack of diamonds.
Maybe 5 Spade asking for it?
Germany obviously bid 7NT versus us

lost space on bidding and asking the outside kings prevail to the jack trumps.Even outside queens. So no more space for asking the jack trump now (the 4♥ cue doesn't show always a king can be an ace so u still may need to ask for the K♥ or even K♠,or K♣ then u need to jump over some steps.
Starting with 3♥cue u force your partner to cue 3♠ if he has the ace then now u only need to ask with spiral scan for k♥ and the j♦ .

[Phil]

MrAce, on 2011-July-29, 00:55, said:

1. Tuff hand for natural systems to bid , perhaps artificial symetric relays and denial cue bids can scan all the way down to jacks.

2. 7♥ looks like best contract. 4-2 or better ♥ + 4-2 or better ♠ (or if someone has 5♥ we need him to have 2♠+3♦+3♣ )

1. Indeed they can. I expect the relay nerds will start falling all over themselves to demonstrate how they can show Jacks here.

2. Hearts are 5-1? Am I really playing the hand in a fashion where I will even know if hearts are 5-1 until I see the hand records?

[xxhong]

If you really want to bid 7H, it is probably possible.
1S 2D (GF, natural)
2H (weakness) 2S (waiting, denies 5 card side suit, denies S fit, denies 6 D)
2N (waiting, denies 5C, denies 4D, denies 5H, denies 6S) 3D (5D, denies C suit)
3H (4H) 3S (doubleton S)
3N (nothing to bid) 4C (start cuebidding for slam, no 8 card fit has been found)
4D(cue for D) 4H (cue for H)
4S (cue for S control) 5C(extra showing, cue for CK)
5H (cue for H) 5S(cue for S)
5N (no Q to cue bid now) 6C(cue for CQ and grandslam interest)
6H (cue for HJ) 7H (just need to ruff a spade and H 33 or 4-2 to make it)

Still, cuebidding without a fit is not a very well studied subject.

Raff90, on 2011-July-29, 00:38, said:

♠ A T 8 5 3
♥ K J T 3 North starts the Auction with 1 Spade. Is there a possibility to find out if North got the Jack of diamonds?
♦ K 6
♣ T 8



♠ K 4
♥ A Q 9
♦ A Q 9 3 2
♣ A K Q

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2011-July-29, 09:47, said:

2. Hearts are 5-1? Am I really playing the hand in a fashion where I will even know if hearts are 5-1 until I see the hand records?

You dont need hand records, suppose they led ♥ vs 7♥, u cash another ♥ and if 5/1 u play him to hold 2533 hand and claim your 7 if he has. If ♥ are followed by both opps at 2nd round, u need only 1 ♠ ruff to dummy anyway, ♠ AK and ruff 3rd ♠, try to come back to hand with ♦K to clear trumps.

[ahydra]

1S - 7NT



ahydra

[FrancesHinden]

vianu2, on 2011-July-29, 01:20, said:

1♠-2♦
2♥-3♣
3♦-3♥
3♠-4♦ (rkc in ♦)
4NT(2 w/o queen)-5♦ (spiral scan for k♥)
5♠ (k♥no k♣)-6♠ (spiral scan for J♦)
6NT no J♦

Having got to 5S in your spiral auction, you can ask for the queen of spades with 5NT, but over 6C (no SQ) the other two queens come next and you don't have room to ask for the DJ. So great auction to decide which card to ask for.

You found out partner has the ace of spades, king of diamonds, king hearts, not the king of clubs and not the jack of diamonds.

Unfortunately for you, the players having ahydra's auction (1S - 7NT) find that partner has instad got

AQxxx
KJxx
Kx
xx

and they wrap up their 13 tricks with a claim at trick 1.

[awm]

Zelandakh, on 2011-July-29, 03:37, said:

1S - 2D
2H - 2N (assuming 2D is GF)
3N - 5N
6N perhaps?

I like this auction. If opener had ♦KJ he would probably have bid 3♦ over 2NT (two diamond honors is a pretty strong holding). If opener had the spade queen (for a pretty solid 13-count) he would accept the quantitative grand slam try.

Yes, I can find out all the cards using relay methods, but this is the SAYC and 2/1 forum.

[vianu2]

Hm i will think about

[vianu2]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-July-31, 09:41, said:

Having got to 5S in your spiral auction, you can ask for the queen of spades with 5NT, but over 6C (no SQ) the other two queens come next and you don't have room to ask for the DJ. So great auction to decide which card to ask for.

You found out partner has the ace of spades, king of diamonds, king hearts, not the king of clubs and not the jack of diamonds.

Unfortunately for you, the players having ahydra's auction (1S - 7NT) find that partner has instad got

AQxxx
KJxx
Kx
xx

and they wrap up their 13 tricks with a claim at trick 1.

Perhaps (is just a suggestion) if i ask for q♠ that means i don't want to stop at 6♦ (if partner says no), because i cannot need the q♠ (i don't have ♠ fit ) to bid 7♦.I can stop at 6NT.
So 6♦ i would not take as to play.
So after 5♠ i can ask for q♠ with 5NT
6♣ says no Q♠ and 6♦/6♥ would ask for other queens.
6♠ would ask for J♦ and seems better than 1♠-7NT.
Of course i could play only 6NT (missing q♠, j♦) and ahydra claims 13 trics in a second:)
In the previous auction i jumped over 6♦ because partner said he has not K♣ and it may be important for a 7level contract (so 6♦ must be to play).