[Aberlour10]

I would like to ask our experts for opinions about advantages and disadvantages this opening's at the intermediate-advanced level. Thanks for comments.

[VM1973]

This is a strange location to ask for expert opinion seeing as its the beginner/intermediate area.

I believe the advantage of opening 1NT with a 5-card major is it saves rebid problems. A hand like:

♠Kx
♥AQJxx
♦Kxx
♣Kxx

Has rebid problems with:
1♥-P-1♠-P
???

I remember Fred Hamilton was once asked what he thought and he said you should never do it holding 5 spades as you never have rebid problems with that hand. I know Marty Bergen recommends it and I believe he recommends using 3♣ as Puppet Stayman to get "back with the field" and find the 5-3 major fit.

I also believe Kit Woolsey said in his book, "Matchpoints" that one shouldn't have hard and fast rules on it. Instead he suggested that it was good to do with a strong suit (like ♥AKQxx) or a bad suit (like ♥J9xxx) but that you shouldn't do it with a suit like ♥KJxxx because the suit isn't solid enough to run at No Trump and you may need the extra control the trump suit gives you in order to establish it.

[Aberlour10]

VM1973, on 2011-July-27, 15:49, said:

This is a strange location to ask for expert opinion seeing as its the beginner/intermediate area.

I would not say that, almost all forum experts read and post here.

[helene_t]

Pro: you get your values across. If you start with 1M you will have to rebid a 3-card minor suit over a 1♠ or 1NT response. This in itself is not so bad - while it occasionally leads to a 4-3 or 3-3 fit it also sometimes allowed you to find a 5-3 minor suit fit that could not have been found opening 1NT. But you probably owe p a 3rd bid which can take you to 2NT when a 1NT opening would have let to a 1NT or 2oM contract. Also in competition you often can't show your values (and certainly not value+shape) if you open 1M.

Con: you often don't get your 5-card major across and may miss a 5-3 or even 5-4 major fit.

[MrAce]

helene_t, on 2011-July-27, 16:10, said:

Pro: you get your values across. If you start with 1M you will have to rebid a 3-card minor suit over a 1♠ or 1NT response. This in itself is not so bad - while it occasionally leads to a 4-3 or 3-3 fit it also sometimes allowed you to find a 5-3 minor suit fit that could not have been found opening 1NT. But you probably owe p a 3rd bid which can take you to 2NT when a 1NT opening would have let to a 1NT or 2oM contract. Also in competition you often can't show your values (and certainly not value+shape) if you open 1M.

Con: you often don't get your 5-card major across and may miss a 5-3 or even 5-4 major fit.

Yes and i have to add, by opening 1 NT;

-you usually right side the 3NT and 4M contracts as well as NT or major partscores.

-For B/I players, even for experts, 1 NT opening gives immediate value of the hand to pd, easier to handle because most conventions used after 1 NT opening are almost universal.

-When your 5 card major is ♥, it is hard to overcall 1♠ (you may find yourself playing 4♥ and making while other table finds the 4♠ save)

Disadvantages in addition to Helene's, you may end up playing 2 major partscore in 5-2 fit while 5-3 was available.

Overall, my own experience tells me, regardless of how flawed a 15/17 balanced hand is, it is usually worse when u do not open it 1NT.

[fromageGB]

helene_t, on 2011-July-27, 16:10, said:

...
Also in competition you often can't show your values (and certainly not value+shape) if you open 1M.

I would counter-argue that in a competitive bidding situation it is a disaster to have not shown a 5 card major.

The advantage of opening a 5 card major is that you can have a clear set of agreements on how high you should together bid in the major (length of support, strength, etc) and you have no problem in getting to play in NT when that is best. Conversely, once you open 1NT, you can only guess to end in the correct major contract.

Perhaps the problem is a reluctance to rebid 1NT?
In this neck of the woods, some Km up the river Tyne, almost everyone is happy to have a wide-ranging NT rebid, and most use 2♣ as a strength checkback.

[jillybean]

We are playing 3♣/1N as puppet which means there is no guessing game and it is very simple to find your 5-3 and 4-4 major fits. After a couple of disasters, I've found Puppet to be a very simple convention to remember and
I don't miss the natural 3♣/1N.

[Siegmund]

IMO whether you are playing 3C as GFPuppet is a rather minor consideration.

The most common losses are when responder is weak and you belonged in the 5-3 major fit you never found.

Of course in my neck of the woods, 1NT with a 5-card major is the vast-majority treatment at sectionals and regionals, so there is no "getting back with the field" to be done, just a simple question of getting a lot of average-pluses and the occasional average-minus.

[daveharty]

World-class experts can't even agree on this. There was a vivid example in the second quarter of the Spingold final yesterday: East held AJ975 K74 642 AK. At one table, Meckstroth opened 1NT (14-16) with the hand, which led to a making 3NT. At the other table, Multon opened 1S (I believe he had a strong NT available), but was then in an awkward spot over partner's 1NT response. He guessed to pass, and lost 10 IMPs as a result. Larry Cohen went on at length about how strongly he felt about opening 1NT with such hands.

[gwnn]

Just open 1NT. With 17 it's often good to stretch to bid 1M and rebid 2NT though.

[jh51]

In terms of "catching up to the field", let me relate a story.

I played in an event earlier this year where my partner opened 1NT with a 16 HCP hand which included a 5 card major. I happened to also have 5 cards in this major, and transferred. While she super-aceepted, I was not good enough to go to game opposite a 4 card suit. I suppose that had 4 of the major been going down, I would not be telling thie tale, but the field was in 4 of the major, making. Those who opened 1 of the major got the LOTT raise to 4. Following the law, I suppose my partner's superaccept should have been to the 4 level!

[helene_t]

jh51, on 2011-August-01, 12:39, said:

Following the law, I suppose my partner's superaccept should have been to the 4 level!

No, you need shortness or at least two doubletons to go to the 4 level in a 5-5 fit, especially when opps don't appear to be bidding over 3♠ anyway.

[ggwhiz]

The simple way to roadtest this comes from Marty Bergen.

Your partners likely response is your short major (1♠ if you open 1♥) or 1nt. Plan your 2nd bid before deciding on 1 of a major or 1nt and open the one you feel more comfortable with.

These are high enough frequency hands that it shouldn't take too long to find your comfort level but I most definitely don't agree with an always or never approach.

[fromageGB]

I suppose it is more of a problem if you play a non-forcing NT. With a forcing NT, and a 2♣ rebid definition that is "4+ clubs or balanced", with 2♦ then available to discover which, the problem of opening a major disappears. And if a reply of 2♥ over 1♠ is a GF you have no problem of course.

Naturally one of the costs of a forcing NT is that you cannot play in 1NT, or 2♦ if you have this continuation, but it is remarkable how small a downside this is.

I hadn't thought about this before, but maybe the argument as to whether a hand should open 1NT or 1M is strongly influenced by whether you play a forcing NT.

[VM1973]

fromageGB, on 2011-August-02, 09:15, said:

I suppose it is more of a problem if you play a non-forcing NT. With a forcing NT, and a 2♣ rebid definition that is "4+ clubs or balanced", with 2♦ then available to discover which, the problem of opening a major disappears. And if a reply of 2♥ over 1♠ is a GF you have no problem of course.

Naturally one of the costs of a forcing NT is that you cannot play in 1NT, or 2♦ if you have this continuation, but it is remarkable how small a downside this is.

I hadn't thought about this before, but maybe the argument as to whether a hand should open 1NT or 1M is strongly influenced by whether you play a forcing NT.

Your analysis is probably pretty good... as long as the 5cm is the spade suit.

Holding:

♠Kxx
♥KJxxx
♦Axx
♣Ax

You open 1♥-Pass-1♠-Pass-??

Do you:
A) Rebid 1NT showing 12-14 HCP
B) Bid 2♠
C) Bid 3♠
D) Bid 2♦
E) Bid 2♥
OR
F) Fake a heart attack and be rushed to the hospital?

[Aberlour10]

A lot of interesting views, thanks all.
I asked it because I got (as the responder to 1N opening )to xxx time a typical 7hcp hand

xxxx
Kxx
x
Axxxx

passed it of course and missed to xx time the game, where easy 1M-2M-4M bidding would work.

[semeai]

Aberlour10, on 2011-August-02, 16:38, said:

A lot of interesting views, thanks all.
I asked it because I got (as the responder to 1N opening )to xxx time a typical 7hcp hand

xxxx
Kxx
x
Axxxx

passed it of course and missed to xx time the game, where easy 1M-2M-4M bidding would work.

This is a good argument against bidding 1NT on most 17 counts with a 5 card major. Essentially you're upgrading them, which is fine with a 5 card suit.

You can still miss a major suit game when opening 1NT with a 15-16 count, but it's much less likely. You'll just invite with these, and most hands that will accept an invite over 1M-2M will move over 1NT, though not your example hand.* Here you might make the decision to open suit-oriented (aces and kings) 15-16 counts with a 5 card major with 1 of the major. Then again, you might not if you figure the various benefits and lack of rebid problems are worth it.

Were most of these cases 17 counts or were you already upgrading them? At least were they basically all 17 counts or suit-oriented hands?

* Come to think of it, I wonder whether your example hand should move over 1NT. It will play well in a major suit, and has a 5 card suit on the side as well. You might pass over 1N-2C;2H, though, thinking you'd improved the contract enough.

[shingkit]

VM1973, on 2011-August-02, 11:43, said:

Your analysis is probably pretty good... as long as the 5cm is the spade suit.

Holding:

♠Kxx
♥KJxxx
♦Axx
♣Ax

You open 1♥-Pass-1♠-Pass-??

Do you:
A) Rebid 1NT showing 12-14 HCP
B) Bid 2♠
C) Bid 3♠
D) Bid 2♦
E) Bid 2♥
OR
F) Fake a heart attack and be rushed to the hospital?

Will rebid 1NT as inadequate spade for option B) and C) and inadequate points for D) and E

[fromageGB]

VM1973, on 2011-August-02, 11:43, said:

Your analysis is probably pretty good... as long as the 5cm is the spade suit.

Holding:

♠Kxx
♥KJxxx
♦Axx
♣Ax

You open 1♥-Pass-1♠-Pass-??

Do you:
A) Rebid 1NT showing 12-14 HCP
B) Bid 2♠
C) Bid 3♠
D) Bid 2♦
E) Bid 2♥
OR
F) Fake a heart attack and be rushed to the hospital?

fromageGB, on 2011-July-30, 14:40, said:

Perhaps the problem is a reluctance to rebid 1NT?
In this neck of the woods, some Km up the river Tyne, almost everyone is happy to have a wide-ranging NT rebid, and most use 2♣ as a strength checkback.

Of course I would rebid 1NT, and with a 9+ count my partner would bid 2♣ inquiry. With this hand, the reply is a GF 3♠. No problem.

Have a wide-ranging 1NT rebid - why restrict to 12-14?

Edit: I can see why you would restrict to 12-14 if a 1NT open included all shapes of 15-17, but if it doesn't, for example if it does not usually include a 5 card major, then I see no reason for a restriction. (By the way, "9+" in this context of this checkback means 9 with some useful shape, but 10 in a flat hand.)

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2011-August-03, 04:19

[VM1973]

So holding:

♠K10x
♠KJ10xx
♦A10x
♣xx

You'll open 1♥ and rebid 1NT and also holding:

♠Kxx
♥KJxxx
♦Axx
♣AQ

Is that right? 1NT rebid 11-17?

Out of curiosity... how many points should responder have to bid:

(opponents pass throughout)
1♥-1♠
1NT-4NT (quantitative) ?