[han]

I agree with all of those that said 1D is the least attractive opening bid. It should either be 2NT (which would also be my choice) or 1C, which is clearly better than 1D. The plan must be to rebid 2S over 1H. This suggests a 5-card minor, and the clubs are much better than the diamonds. Opening 1C also has the advantage that partner needs far less to bid 1D over 1C than to bid 2C over 1D.

Rebidding 1S strikes me as odd, even if you play this as forcing. If 1S is non-forcing then passing with a 3514 shape is an option, but the north hand is too strong.

[the_dude]

 jillybean, on 2011-July-26, 08:01, said:

Thanks for the replies, here is the full hand.

---

Making 5 of course.

A couple of comments:

- big 4441 hands are a royal PITA in std american - there's no good way to bid them, as most people like to guarantee at least 5-4 shape to reverse or jump shift. That leaves 4441 strong hands out in the cold.

- Given that 4441 hands have no good bid, the singleton K makes opening 2NT the least damaging lie IMHO. Jump shifting makes it more likely that you will end up playing in your minor suit. However ... opening 1♣ and rebidding spades is reasonable as well - there's just no good answer for this hand type.

- Once you have opened a minor, you simply have to jump shift at your second bid to show your values. In Standard American, Bidding 1♠ shows 12-18 points in the same way that opening 1major then rebidding 2minor shows 12-18 points. Failure to jump shift means partner is allowed to pass you (which of course you cannot afford with 20 opposite at least 6).

- That being said, North's pass was a serious mistake - he should bid 1NT. He has a very nice hand .. 2 aces and a good 5card major means game can be on even opposite a less powerful south hand. South could easily hold a nice 16-17point 4-3-5-1 hand and I would want to be in game opposite that...

[jillybean]

I didn't much like Norths pass either but while my partner is away having fun in Toronto, I'm playing with pickups and the only bids I have any influence on are my own. Bidding 1♠ made me ill but I like 2♠ less, if I get this hand again I will try 2N.

[Cyberyeti]

Well firstly N should be shot for the pass. Yes this doesn't seem to fit well, but partner can have a lot of hands that don't want to bid 2♠ that make game here (or do you open 1♠ with Kxxxx, x, AQJ10xx, x for example or KQxx, QJ, Axxxx, Ax).

Secondly, you can't bid 1♠ if partner will pass with anywhere close to that much.

We'd prob bid
1♦-1♥
1♠-1N
2♣(4SF)-2♠
3♣(nat and big 4144/4054)-4♣(nat and big in context, 3415/3514/3505, 3424 couldn't be big enough really, although I suppose there might be a 10 count that fits)
4♦(KC)-4N(2 w/o)
6♣.

Not sure how good a contract this is but I suspect it will scramble home one way or another.

Playing more standard methods:

1♦-1♥
2N-3N or 2N-3♥(if this just shows 5)-3N

look sane if you don't have any sophisticated methods over 2N

[daveharty]

 jillybean, on 2011-July-26, 08:28, said:

... if I get this hand again I will try 2N.

If you get this hand again run out and buy a lottery ticket!

[aguahombre]

 jillybean, on 2011-July-26, 08:28, said:

Bidding 1♠ made me ill but I like 2♠ less, if I get this hand again I will try 2N.

There are good pills for nausea on the market. Keep the 1S rebid, but not the partner.

[han]

 jillybean, on 2011-July-26, 08:28, said:

I didn't much like Norths pass either but while my partner is away having fun in Toronto, I'm playing with pickups and the only bids I have any influence on are my own. Bidding 1♠ made me ill but I like 2♠ less, if I get this hand again I will try 2N.

Why do you dislike 2S, and why do you prefer 1D over 1C?

[nigel_k]

I prefer the 1♣ opening as well as partner will misevaluate with short diamonds if you open 1♦, which is kind of what happened. There are lots of 4-4 minor hands where 1♦ has inherent advantages, but with this type you can just choose the better minor or the one which will help partner evaluate better. For example, if the diamonds were KJT9 instead of AJT9, a 1♦ opening would be much more attractive because you want partner to dislike a stiff diamond and like the ♦Q.

2NT is ok but I wouldn't do it because the hand is borderline in terms of strength and my clubs are good so I'll be happy if partner passes 1♣. And there isn't really a rebid problem because I can rebid 2♠.

I don't understand the complaints about North's pass of 1♠. North took a risk responding on a marginal hand and has succeeded in improving the contract. Why would he want to keep on bidding, and if he does then his next bid is going to have an enormously wide range and you will get too high very often.

[gordontd]

 nigel_k, on 2011-July-26, 14:40, said:

North took a risk responding on a marginal hand

??? He has two aces!

[jillybean]

 han, on 2011-July-26, 10:32, said:

Why do you dislike 2S, and why do you prefer 1D over 1C?

I don't like 2♠ because it misrepresents my shape. Having said that I realise that if I'm not going
to open 2N then I would be much better to open 1♣ and rebid 2♠ than what I did here.

[daveharty]

 jillybean, on 2011-July-26, 15:09, said:

I don't like 2♠ because it misrepresents my shape. Having said that I realise that if I'm not going
to open 2N then I would be much better to open 1♣ and rebid 2♠ than what I did here.

It's true that partner's working assumption will be that you are 5-4, but that's not a huge misrepresentation when your five card suit is "only" AKQx.

[Cyberyeti]

My problem with opening 1♣ is what do you do when partner responds 1♦ ? No sensible forcing diamond raise, and if you bid spades, partner is likely to assume you have 3 diamonds not 4 when you then bid diamonds.

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-July-26, 16:17, said:

My problem with opening 1♣ is what do you do when partner responds 1♦ ? No sensible forcing diamond raise, and if you bid spades, partner is likely to assume you have 3 diamonds not 4 when you then bid diamonds.

1♣--1♦
3♥

Anyway
It has been a very useful debate so far for B/I players.

-They learnt to open 2 NT with 4441 hands (i am guilty as charged)
-They learnt to bid 1♠ instead of a jump shift with 20 hcps.
-They learnt to open 1♣ from 4-4 minors.

With this speed of education, i would not be surprised to see B/I players of BBO forums playing in BB very soon.

[nigel_k]

 gordontd, on 2011-July-26, 14:52, said:

??? He has two aces!

Sorry for some reason I thought the hearts were 10xxxx

[the hog]

 han, on 2011-July-26, 08:14, said:

I agree with all of those that said 1D is the least attractive opening bid. It should either be 2NT (which would also be my choice) or 1C, which is clearly better than 1D. The plan must be to rebid 2S over 1H. This suggests a 5-card minor, and the clubs are much better than the diamonds. Opening 1C also has the advantage that partner needs far less to bid 1D over 1C than to bid 2C over 1D.

Rebidding 1S strikes me as odd, even if you play this as forcing. If 1S is non-forcing then passing with a 3514 shape is an option, but the north hand is too strong.

It is not odd if you play 2S as a mini splinter which many do!

[MrAce]

 the hog, on 2011-July-26, 19:05, said:

It is not odd if you play 2S as a mini splinter which many do!

Many ?

If thats true, its definetely a shock to me.

[the hog]

 MrAce, on 2011-July-26, 21:14, said:

Many ?

If thats true, its definetely a shock to me.

Well perhaps I should have said many in my part of the world. They are very common here, even sequences like 1D 1H 3C for example.

[Cyberyeti]

Quote

My problem with opening 1♣ is what do you do when partner responds 1♦ ? No sensible forcing diamond raise, and if you bid spades, partner is likely to assume you have 3 diamonds not 4 when you then bid diamonds.

 MrAce, on 2011-July-26, 17:39, said:

1♣--1♦
3♥

This causes its own problems particularly with a stiff K♥ in getting to 3N when it's right with partner having a dubious heart stop of his own (think xxx,Qxx,KQxxx,xx, even more so when your spades are QJxx rather than Kxxx).

[Zelandakh]

 han, on 2011-July-26, 08:14, said:

I agree with all of those that said 1D is the least attractive opening bid. It should either be 2NT (which would also be my choice) or 1C, which is clearly better than 1D. The plan must be to rebid 2S over 1H.

Han, I found this passage interesting and I would kindly ask for a little clarification. The hand given is 20 hcp but clearly it is borderline for 2NT; my initial evaluation of it was as a good 19. So I am wondering what you have against the sequence 1C - 1H - 2NT. Is it because lying about the club length is the lesser evil or just that you feel the hand is too strong, or something else? And just a secondary thing, I find with your posts that you tell what you would do but very often I would like to hear more from you about the reasoning. You are obviously one of the top posters here and I genuinely think if you gave some details of your thought processes more often it would be a great opportunity for the majority of posters here, myself included, to improve. I hope you do not take offence at this suggestion, none is intended.

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-July-27, 02:14, said:

This causes its own problems particularly with a stiff K♥ in getting to 3N when it's right with partner having a dubious heart stop of his own (think xxx,Qxx,KQxxx,xx, even more so when your spades are QJxx rather than Kxxx).

And why do u think i opened 2 NT at the first place ? But if i am forced to open 1♣ and pd bids 1♦, this is your bid.