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3-cd limit raise in SAYC

#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2011-July-29, 07:19



You play vanilla SAYC so
no forcing or semi-forcing 1NT, no criss-cross raise or strong 2/1, etc.
You still like a limit raise to guarantee 4 trumps so you start with 2.

Over opener's 2NT, you planned 3. Is this non-forcing?

Over 2, is it normal to play 3 now as forcing? (2/1 then jump preference)
If you don't think this hand is worth game, is it okay to bid 2 now?
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#2 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-July-29, 07:46

In this particular auction 3 now is forcing in most systems.

However, I think that in sayc 2 would show Hx support and 3 an invite. Others can perhaps elaborate on this.
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2011-July-29, 08:10

sayc has 3-card limit raises so I suppose now 3 would be a slam invite and 2 would suggest doubleton support and be nonforcing. I wouldn't call it a major violation of SAYC to bid 2 followed by 2 with this hand, though :)
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#4 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-July-29, 08:36

1-3

1Maj-2m
2x-2Maj=10-11 with only 2 cards

1Maj-2m
2x-3M=16+ 3+ cards fit

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#5 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2011-July-29, 08:47

The following is probably unduely influence by my experiences with Blue Club, however, i strongly prefer a style in which a 2/1 establishes an unambiguous force to 2N. The obvious correlary is that

1 - 2
2 - 2

is now forcing. You can then preference back to hearts to show the three card limit raise.

I think that trying to drop dead in 2M following a 2/1 causes a lot more problems than it solves.
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#6 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2011-July-29, 08:57

The ACBL SAYC system booklet specifically states that a 2/1 followed by a jump raise of opener's major to the three level is game forcing - responder should make a direct limit raise of opener's major suit with three cards and invitational values.
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#7 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-July-29, 10:37

View PostArtK78, on 2011-July-29, 08:57, said:

The ACBL SAYC system booklet specifically states that a 2/1 followed by a jump raise of opener's major to the three level is game forcing - responder should make a direct limit raise of opener's major suit with three cards and invitational values.

Yep. And, this is consistent with a thread last year (2009?) where AWM cleared that point up for us. 2/1 followed by 2M is definitely a 2-card stall with about 11 ish.
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#8 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2011-July-29, 14:56

View Postshevek, on 2011-July-29, 07:19, said:

Over opener's 2NT, you planned 3. Is this non-forcing?
Over 2, is it normal to play 3 now as forcing? (2/1 then jump preference)
If you don't think this hand is worth game, is it okay to bid 2 now?

In SAYC, 1-2-2NT shows extras and is game forcing. Yes to the other two questions.

View PostArtK78, on 2011-July-29, 08:57, said:

The ACBL SAYC system booklet specifically states that a 2/1 followed by a jump raise of opener's major to the three level is game forcing - responder should make a direct limit raise of opener's major suit with three cards and invitational values.
Yes, although it's conceivable he has 4 hearts to go with his 5+ clubs and thought that 2 was a better response than either Jacoby 2N or splinter.

View Postaguahombre, on 2011-July-29, 10:37, said:

Yep. And, this is consistent with a thread last year (2009?) where AWM cleared that point up for us. 2/1 followed by 2M is definitely a 2-card stall with about 11 ish.

Two qualifiers:
First, if OP and partner have an agreement that 1-3 shows four hearts, then they need a second bid in the given sequence, and the 2 rebid seems the most reasonable. That would mean that 1-2-2-2 shows 2-3 and game invitational values.
Second, many responding hands with invitational values and 2 hearts will include spade stoppers, and those hands would bid 1-2-2-2N. So, the 2 rebid shows a preference for playing hearts over NT.
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#9 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2011-July-29, 15:06

Note: BBO's Stock Convention Cards include one called simply "SAYC" which is has step-by-step explanations of bidding sequences.
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