[Wackojack]

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Using standard methods, and assuming west opens the bidding with 1♦ and east responds 1♥, is it possible to get to 3NT? If not how would you bid this?

[semeai]

How about:

1D-1H
2D-3C
3H-3S
3N-P

3S is a punt, asking about spades for notrump. East can count 8 tricks, plus a trick from the stopper hopefully.

[whereagles]

This hand would cause my pet system a failure. I really don't see how to bid it with accuracy.

[qwery_hi]

Isn't 1D-1H-2D-3S a splinter? If it is, then 3NT after the splinter is very straightforward.

Wackojack, on 2011-July-25, 04:45, said:

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Using standard methods, and assuming west opens the bidding with 1♦ and east responds 1♥, is it possible to get to 3NT? If not how would you bid this?

[whereagles]

I just remembered the same.

1♦ 1♥
2♦ 3♠

must be a splinter. Really simple now.

[semeai]

Yes, the splinter is surely best, good one qwery_hi.

I suppose my sequence would be used if you move a small club or diamond to spades.

[Wackojack]

Yes of course 3♠ splinter. Although we had not discussed this, my partner was I believe experienced enough to recognise this as a splinter. At the table I was sitting east and the bidding went:
1♦-1♥-2♦-3♣-4♥! I was going to bid 3♠ over 3♥ but did not get the chance. Presumably partner did not want to bid 3♥ as it could have been showing doubleton preference.

[semeai]

Wackojack, on 2011-July-25, 09:36, said:

Yes of course 3♠ splinter. Although we had not discussed this, my partner was I believe experienced enough to recognise this as a splinter. At the table I was sitting east and the bidding went:
1♦-1♥-2♦-3♣-4♥! I was going to bid 3♠ over 3♥ but did not get the chance. Presumably partner did not want to bid 3♥ as it could have been showing doubleton preference.

I think 3♥ over 3♣ shows 3, or conceivably a good doubleton that you actually want to treat as 3. There's no need to take a preference in a game forcing auction, you can just bid one of 3♦, 3♠, 3NT with any hand with 2 hearts (or, more rarely, something above 3NT). Notice that over 3♦, partner can rebid 3♥ with 6 hearts or 5 particularly good ones.

[aguahombre]

Wackojack, on 2011-July-25, 09:36, said:

Yes of course 3♠ splinter. Although we had not discussed this, my partner was I believe experienced enough to recognise this as a splinter. At the table I was sitting east and the bidding went:
1♦-1♥-2♦-3♣-4♥! I was going to bid 3♠ over 3♥ but did not get the chance. Presumably partner did not want to bid 3♥ as it could have been showing doubleton preference.

Yep. I didn't think about the possibility your partner might be a "leaper". Certainly the 3S splinter is 100% on this hand. But, partner should never have jumped to 4H. You could have been more slammish for diamonds with the 3C call, which you would have clarified over 3H. (For instance, X AXXX AQXX AKXX. 3S splinter would be wasteful with that much power for a diamond slam and 3C would be much better if partner will just relax and not blast 4H over it.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

a trick question?

1D - 1H
2D - 3C
3NT

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: 3S instead of 3C is even better.

[xxhong]

1D 1H
2D 3C(D fit and 4 hearts, bid 2S with 5 H)
3D(minimum) 3H(two way, either cuebidding H (later pull 3NT) or trying 3NT, usually worry about S)
3S(S value, worry about C) 3N

Wackojack, on 2011-July-25, 04:45, said:

---

Using standard methods, and assuming west opens the bidding with 1♦ and east responds 1♥, is it possible to get to 3NT? If not how would you bid this?

[Wackojack]

semeai, on 2011-July-25, 09:45, said:

I think 3♥ over 3♣ shows 3, or conceivably a good doubleton that you actually want to treat as 3. There's no need to take a preference in a game forcing auction, you can just bid one of 3♦, 3♠, 3NT with any hand with 2 hearts (or, more rarely, something above 3NT). Notice that over 3♦, partner can rebid 3♥ with 6 hearts or 5 particularly good ones.

It may be convenient here to regard the 3♣ bid as game forcing, but should it be? Suppose you want to invite. What options do you have?
1♦-1♥-2♦-2NT Yes an invite when you have a suitable balanced hand.
1♦-1♥-2♦-3♦. This should just raising the bar and not invitational.
So it makes sense for 3♣ to be forcing to 3♦ or 3♥ both of which may be passed.
All the same I agree that 3♥ rebid with a minimum openening hand would have been appropriate.

Marlowe, on 2011-July-25, 09:45, said:

Hi,

a trick question?

1D - 1H
2D - 3C
3NT

With kind regards
Marlowe

I would take the 3♣ bid imply a 5 card heart suit. Thus to bid 3NT with a singleton club looks wrong. Does it have to be a 5 card heart suit? It seems not.

[gordontd]

Wackojack, on 2011-July-26, 08:50, said:

It may be convenient here to regard the 3♣ bid as game forcing, but should it be?

Yes

Partner will have to rebid 3NT on some misfitting minimum hands, so you must be strong enough to support that.

I haven't heard the question asked, even in England, for more than twenty years!

[rduran1216]

If the auction begins

1D 1H
2D ...

it shouldn't be tough.

The hard part is if it starts

1D 1H
2H ...

then you have serious problems IMO.

[whereagles]

Indeed. I see one solution, which is to bid

1♦ 1♥
2♥ 2♠*
3♦ 3NT

2♠ = usual relay in this style. Asks for clarification.
3♦ = long diamonds, 3-card heart.
3NT = on grounds that if pard had spade problems, he could have bid 3♣.

[rduran1216]

whereagles, on 2011-July-26, 13:34, said:

Indeed. I see one solution, which is to bid

1♦ 1♥
2♥ 2♠*
3♦ 3NT

2♠ = usual relay in this style. Asks for clarification.
3♦ = long diamonds, 3-card heart.
3NT = on grounds that if pard had spade problems, he could have bid 3♣.

For the people I play this with, I dont have that agreement about the 3D bid, its just good bad 3/4 style,

So actually

1D 1H
2H 2S
2NT (bad 3 card) 3C (should be forcing showing club controls)
3NT p p p

[whereagles]

2NT would be 4 spades for me, in case responder has a 4-4. As opener I don't bid 1♠ if I have a 3-card heart and unbalanced hand. Never gave this a good thought, though. I might change it.

[Wackojack]

gordontd, on 2011-July-26, 08:56, said:

Yes

Partner will have to rebid 3NT on some misfitting minimum hands, so you must be strong enough to support that.

I haven't heard the question asked, even in England, for more than twenty years!

This was a MP session I might add, so responder might not like the idea of languishing in 2♦ when there is a 5-3 heart fit even if it is in a part score. So the advantage of having another less than game force bid besides 2NT might outweigh the disadvantage of not being able to keep low when in the slam zone.

I certainly have regarded 1♦-1♥-2♦-3♣ as a game force. Nevertheless, maybe it is a good idea to ask that question again after 20 years.

As for whereagles "solution" 1♦-1♥-2♥in the context of the acual hands. This looks perverse at imp scoring and highly speculative in MP scoring.

[whereagles]

Yeah, my solution is far from optimal. This hand got me thinking. I came to notice that auctions where opener has diamonds and responder has hearts often have complications.

[cloa513]

Wackojack, on 2011-July-27, 03:55, said:

This was a MP session I might add, so responder might not like the idea of languishing in 2♦ when there is a 5-3 heart fit even if it is in a part score. So the advantage of having another less than game force bid besides 2NT might outweigh the disadvantage of not being able to keep low when in the slam zone.

I certainly have regarded 1♦-1♥-2♦-3♣ as a game force. Nevertheless, maybe it is a good idea to ask that question again after 20 years.

As for whereagles "solution" 1♦-1♥-2♥in the context of the acual hands. This looks perverse at imp scoring and highly speculative in MP scoring.

1♦,1♥,2♥,2♠(general force),3♦,3♠(offering shortage definite club cover), 3NT shouldn't be problem.