[Antrax]

We play that 1♥-(1♠)-2♠ shows limit raise or better in support of hearts (3♥ would be weak with four-card support, 2♥ is a standard constructive 6-9 raise). Last night partner bid 3♥ after pass from my LHO intending this to show a strong hand interested in slam. I passed it, thinking it shows a minimum opener. He asked what to do with a better hand, I said 4♥, which admittedly isn't likely to elicit another call from me. So, how can opener here show he has extras and slam interest? Cue 3♠ again? What if LHO continues 3♠?

[matmat]

was this the auction:
1♥-(1♠)-2♠-(P)
3♥-all pass?

If so, 3♥ declines the invite opposite limit raise values, so it is likely on the weak side for an opening hand with no compensating shape or sharp values that would jump to game.

A rebid by opener in another suit could be a game try or an advance cue-bid showing extras that might be interested in slam, and is, consequently, forcing.

[Antrax]

Yeah, that's how I understood our system (and he too, after the discussion - he didn't realize the distinction between "forcing to 3♥" and "forcing to game", and why fast arrival won't apply).
He's just worried that now he has no way to show a slam-going hand. For us a different suit would be a game try (which is what I would do with slam-going hands) and 2NT would show a stopper (though I'm not sure how useful that is, since with a major suit fit we're unlikely to want to play NT). The question is, does opener here have any game-forcing bids that still leave room for investigation?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

a trial bid, bidding a new suit, after the partnership has an agreed major suit fit,
is either looking for sufficient strength, so that a game has a reasonable chance or
it is a cue.

With a hand with SI, opener (or responder) makes the trial bid and than makes another
bid, e.g. if p declined the invitation by bidding 3H, and if now you bid 4H, you show
a hand with SI, e.g.

1S - (1S) - 2S (1) - (Pass)
3C(2) - (Pass) - 3H (3) - (Pass)
4H(4)

(1) fit amd inv.+
(2) trial bid
(3) min, no interest in game
(4) SI

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Antrax]

Ah, thanks. So a followup question, as responder, do I take the game try as natural (and consequently upgrade fitting honors) or as an artificial way to show 4H isn't necessarily a sign-off?
Also, how do you handle the auction 1♥-(1♠)-2♠-(3♠)? What bid by opener here would show extra strength?

[P_Marlowe]

In the last seq.

# 4H by opener is to play
# a new suit showes SI and values in this suit
# X is penalty, but p can bid 4H if he has a hand more suitable for 4H

Regarding your first q:

You should always assume, that the game try is a game try, if you play
value showing game tries, than if opener makes another move, showing SI,
than he did make a cue.
You will understand the SI, if you see the move.

E.g. if responder declined the invite to game, opener bis game nevertheless,
he has SI, ... important to remember, thats why Captial letters:

HE DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RACE OR DID FIND ANOTHER ACE.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Antrax]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense except when playing with my partner - in the past he's been known to ignore my opinion in auctions where he requests it

[wyman]

Antrax, on 2011-July-25, 06:20, said:

Yeah, that makes perfect sense except when playing with my partner - in the past he's been known to ignore my opinion in auctions where he requests it

Learning to work with partner, to trust partner, and to be a sympathetic partner (in the sense that you have to understand the pressures that are on partner at each point in the auction) is just as important as learning system and to play the cards.

Moreover, you can take inference when partner "ignores" you; since he's not really "allowed" to ignore your input, he must be probing for something else.

Negative inferences, etc., are present all over bridge. Consider the following auction for instance, which my partner and I perpetrated in the Flight C GNTs a few years ago:

1H-2N; [2N showed a game-forcing 4-card heart raise]
3H-4C; [3H showed extras; 4C showed A or K of clubs]
4D-4N; [4D showed A or K of diamonds, 4N was 1430 RKC]
5H-5N; [5H showed 2 keycards without the HQ; 5N asked for specific kings]
6C-6H; [6C showed the club king but doesn't deny any other kings]
7H-7N; [!!]
Pass

What do we know from the auction? Well, since I bid 5N, I'm committing us to the 6-level, so I must be trying for a grand (otherwise, I could just bid 6H and be done with it). 6C is the most positive response my partner could give (it denies nothing!), so it can't be the case that we're (for sure) missing something important for the grand. But obviously the CK isn't enough. If I were looking for the DK, I could bid 6D, but I didn't. So I must be looking for the spade king. Partner figured it out and had the spade king and raised to 7H. With that card, I could count 13 tricks, so I bid 7N. Why risk a ruff? It was ice cold, and we picked up 13 IMPs on the board.

Anyway, this auction is to illustrate that when partner chooses one action over another, it must mean something. Here, by probing with 5N then 6H instead of bidding 6H directly, partner was able to infer that I was looking for grand, not that I was ignoring his input of 6C.

So, next time the auction goes
1H-2H; 3C-3H; 4H-P
partner ought to have slam interest.

[Antrax]

Yeah, sorry, I meant it as a joke. We have a surprising number of auctions like 1♥-2♥, 3♣-3♥ (no help in clubs, not retrying in diamonds, leave me alone p I'm minimum), 4♥, or partner seeing we're missing a KC, asking about Q, hearing a no, and bidding 6 anyway

[semeai]

wyman, on 2011-July-25, 07:09, said:

[... 1H-2N;3H-4C;4D-4N;5H-5N;6C-6H;7H-7N ...]

Anyway, this auction is to illustrate that when partner chooses one action over another, it must mean something. Here, by probing with 5N then 6H instead of bidding 6H directly, partner was able to infer that I was looking for grand, not that I was ignoring his input of 6C.

So, next time the auction goes
1H-2H; 3C-3H; 4H-P
partner ought to have slam interest.

Your main point is very good, and with a partner who thinks like you do your examples are fine, but I must point out that many would not have the negative inferences you point out in these two auctions.

In auction 1, many bid 5N as a courtesy to partner, not specifically trying for the grand but simply confirming all keys. On your specific auction, partner is unlimited, after all, and bidding 6H directly would leave doubt as to whether you're missing a keycard. You can argue over whether in that case you should have bid 4♠, letting partner bid keycard, but I won't get into that other than to say that you may be bidding keycard to confirm the small slam, not necessarily to give the best chances for the grand.

For auction 2, see this rather good post from Fred disagreeing.

[wyman]

semeai, on 2011-July-25, 09:32, said:

Your main point is very good, and with a partner who thinks like you do your examples are fine, but I must point out that many would not have the negative inferences you point out in these two auctions.

In auction 1, many bid 5N as a courtesy to partner, not specifically trying for the grand but simply confirming all keys. On your specific auction, partner is unlimited, after all, and bidding 6H directly would leave doubt as to whether you're missing a keycard. You can argue over whether in that case you should have bid 4♠, letting partner bid keycard, but I won't get into that other than to say that you may be bidding keycard to confirm the small slam, not necessarily to give the best chances for the grand.

For auction 2, see this rather good post from Fred disagreeing.

Both very good points, and in particular, thanks for pointing out Fred's post.

[Antrax]

Okay. So back to the original question, how do Fred and his partner show slam interest in the aforementioned auction?

[wyman]

Well, 4H may show interest in slamming (but only if partner has enough to accept a game try). If he wants more info from P, he can cuebid over 3H.

[semeai]

Antrax, on 2011-July-25, 11:56, said:

Okay. So back to the original question, how do Fred and his partner show slam interest in the aforementioned auction?

For me: If the fact that partner declined the game try made you certain there's no slam, bid 4H. If not, cuebid over 3H. The way I play this doesn't convert 3D into a cuebid. It's still a long/help/short/whatever-you-play-it-as suit.

[Antrax]

So slammish auctions start with a game try, declined (if accepted it's easy), then another mention of a suit intended as a cue bid?
What happens in the auction 1♥-(1♠)-2♠-(3♠)?

[semeai]

Antrax, on 2011-July-25, 23:13, said:

So slammish auctions start with a game try, declined (if accepted it's easy), then another mention of a suit intended as a cue bid?
What happens in the auction 1♥-(1♠)-2♠-(3♠)?

This is actively contested, so there are other issues. I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to suggest how I actually play in this forum.

One simple way to play: Cuebid 4♣ or 4♦ with a slam try, just as in the auction 1♥-3♥ (limit raise).

How I'd actually play: It's more valuable to know whether to compete over their 4♠ than to make a clear slam try. I would play 4♣ and 4♦ as a side suit & values, not necessarily showing slam interest, but initially taken as consulting partner on whether to compete over 4♠. As in the slam-try-starting-as-game-try case, you also do this with a slam try. [Yet less appropriate for this forum perhaps: If your choice is 4♣ and the 1♠ bidder passes next, partner has a bid between 4♣ and 4♥ with which to suggest a good hand for slam if your bid is intended as a slam try.]

To further explain: By consulting partner by mentioning a side suit, I mean that partner will be more likely to choose to defend with shortness in the suit I mention, and more likely to choose to compete with length in the suit I mention.

[Antrax]

This is from Robson / Segal, right? I started reading it but I think it's too advanced for me at this stage.

[Bbradley62]

Antrax, on 2011-July-25, 08:35, said:

We have a surprising number of auctions like 1♥-2♥, 3♣-3♥ (no help in clubs, not retrying in diamonds, leave me alone p I'm minimum), 4♥..

This is actually an excellent example of a slam-try auction. Suppose opener was very close to opening 2♣, with a ♣/♥ two-suiter. He bids 3♣ to ask partner to evaulate his hand within his simple-raise limits, and with the info that partner's second suit is clubs. It's not a problem that responder thinks he's accepting or declining a game invitation when opener actually means for it to be a slam try.

[Antrax]

Except in the post linked to, Fred says this is a bad system.

[wyman]

Antrax, on 2011-July-26, 08:35, said:

Except in the post linked to, Fred says this is a bad system.

No, Fred's post says that 4H is not an invitation to bid on. There are several reasons opener may have bid 3C in this auction. One of them is that had responder accepted the 3C game try, opener would have made a move toward slam. There are others as well, such as giving responder the opportunity to bid 3N or just misleading the opponents (or misleading the opponents into thinking you're trying to mislead the opponents...).