[Mbodell]

Opponents silent

1♥ - 1♠
2♣ - 3♦

What should responder have?

[wank]

a splinter would be normal

[awm]

I believe the "expert standard" meaning is that this shows 5+♠ and 5+♦ with exactly game-invitational values (and not forcing).

A case can be made for a splinter, for game-forcing 5/5, for invitational 4/6, and even for weak 4/6. In general it's a good sequence for partnership discussion.

[aguahombre]

 awm, on 2011-July-23, 17:18, said:

A case can be made for a splinter, for game-forcing 5/5, for invitational 4/6, and even for weak 4/6. In general it's a good sequence for partnership discussion.

Yep. We happen to choose "weak 4/6", but Adam has covered all the bases, and we don't want to make the case for the other ones. It would involve changing what other rebids mean and our whole structure...which we are too old to do.

[mike777]

I will guess splinter.
that means with 5-5 and invite I got to rebid 2nt.
fwiw cannot remember last time this came up.

[aguahombre]

Mike777 brings up a good point about frequency. My guess is that the frequency of having other hands and being able to handle them with 2D vs. the ability to get out with the bad 4-6 makes our choice even better.

But, again relying on the Dennis Miller caviat: It is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Mbodell]

This came up today at dinner with one of the teams that is in the GNT B finals. I had always thought 55 and nf invitational, one of the players in the team had thought that at the table, but in discussion they all settled on the proper meaning being 4-6 and nf (which is what the other player at the table thought) as the proper treatment and agreed to rebid 2♠ with 55 invites.

So if you have the agreement that it is 46 nf, what's your call as opener with T7 AKQ864 8 K952 (IMPs, favorable)?

Edited to add the hand question.

This post has been edited by Mbodell: 2011-July-24, 02:02

[whereagles]

 awm, on 2011-July-23, 17:18, said:

I believe the "expert standard" meaning is that this shows 5+♠ and 5+♦ with exactly game-invitational values (and not forcing).

A case can be made for a splinter, for game-forcing 5/5, for invitational 4/6, and even for weak 4/6. In general it's a good sequence for partnership discussion.

Invitational is very risky because this sort of auction has a high chance for a misfit and you don't want to play misfits this high.

Game forcing is ok. But even then you shouldn't do that on random 12 counts with no intermediates.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Mbodell, on 2011-July-23, 17:10, said:

Opponents silent

1♥ - 1♠
2♣ - 3♦

What should responder have?

Maybe inquiry ( Ben ) will post something again from K Martens book as he did for a similar auction back in April:
http://www.bridgebas...am/page__st__20

The context would be for specific 4th suit auctions where Opener has limited.

[JLOGIC]

I thought invitational was standard, but I now prefer 5-5 forcing

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-July-24, 05:00, said:

I thought invitational was standard, but I now prefer 5-5 forcing

Then what is the following for you :
1♥ - 1♠
2♣ - 2♦!
2any - 3♦ = ?

[JLOGIC]

I like to have that available as a punt. I feel like the current status quo is to bid slowly vs quickly instead to show the punt hand type lol.

[semeai]

 awm, on 2011-July-23, 17:18, said:

I believe the "expert standard" meaning is that this shows 5+♠ and 5+♦ with exactly game-invitational values (and not forcing).

A case can be made for a splinter, for game-forcing 5/5, for invitational 4/6, and even for weak 4/6. In general it's a good sequence for partnership discussion.

 Mbodell, on 2011-July-23, 22:43, said:

This came up today at dinner with one of the teams that is in the GNT B finals. I had always thought 55 and nf invitational, one of the players in the team had thought that at the table, but in discussion they all settled on the proper meaning being 4-6 and nf (which is what the other player at the table thought) as the proper treatment and agreed to rebid 2♠ with 55 invites.

 JLOGIC, on 2011-July-24, 05:00, said:

I thought invitational was standard, but I now prefer 5-5 forcing

This is interesting. I didn't know invitational was standard, and have always played 5-5 forcing. If the meaning isn't 5-5 forcing, I suppose 1H-1S;2C-2D;any-3D shows 5-5 forcing?

What do you do in the auction 1H-1S;2C-2D;3C-? if you have e.g. a 5-2-3-3 hand without a stopper? 3H shows a GF heart raise, 3S shows a GF hand with 6+ spades, and it seems 3D shows 5-5 GF. There was a thread started by Phil recently with this auction and hand type.

It seems this question has come up while I've been writing this, or before I wrote this (I guess I left the window sitting there for a while!).

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-July-24, 04:46, said:

Maybe inquiry ( Ben ) will post something again from K Martens book as he did for a similar auction back in April:
http://www.bridgebas...am/page__st__20

I imagine the suggestion would be to again use an xyz-like structure, with 2♦ a relay to 2♥ for a signoff there or invitational hands (2♥ rebid not required on hands that would bid over a standard 2♥) and 2♥ as game forcing. It seems good. I suppose you'd want it to apply whenever 4th suit is at the 2-level and not a reverse, and just have 4th suit be game forcing and as usual when a reverse or at the 3-level. (The same dichotomy as in BWS for deciding whether 4th suit is F1 or FG.)

[fromageGB]

Assuming 1♠ and 2♣ are natural, I like 5x5x and invitational. A GF hand has always the option to rebid 2♦.
With 4x5x invitational I would just rebid NT.

[MrAce]

I would think, without any agreement, all forcing auctions after

1x--1y
1NT will start with nmf or check back

1x--1y
1z-- will start with 4th suit forcing (except splinter or rkcb)

1x--1y
2x-- will start with 3rd suit ( except obvious splinter with double jump or RKCB)

Thus, without any special agreement, if i were playing as pd with one of you guys here, i would think this auction shows 5-5 invitational, regardless of which country u are from, because i know regardless of your regional or personal choices, you would think the same way.

[P_Marlowe]

For us - 55 game forcing

I could agree to playing it as splinter.

I would never agree to play it as 55 inv., or as 64 weak,
this is just plain ...

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

...just plain unsound, yes. Jumping around into a misfit isn't my idea of good bidding

[qwery_hi]

I'm not convinced 4-6 NF is a good idea, especially at IMPs. If I want to play in diamonds, Id rather respond 1NT, and correct 2C to 2D or pass 2H. For this reason, I'm more sympathetic to 5-5 and NF, or use it as a splinter.

 Mbodell, on 2011-July-23, 22:43, said:

This came up today at dinner with one of the teams that is in the GNT B finals. I had always thought 55 and nf invitational, one of the players in the team had thought that at the table, but in discussion they all settled on the proper meaning being 4-6 and nf (which is what the other player at the table thought) as the proper treatment and agreed to rebid 2♠ with 55 invites.

So if you have the agreement that it is 46 nf, what's your call as opener with T7 AKQ864 8 K952 (IMPs, favorable)?

Edited to add the hand question.

[awm]

If the bid is not forcing, there are pretty good reasons for it to show 4/6 and not 5/5. The two hand types are close to equal in frequency and would obviously both tend to start with 1♠. The thing is that a minimum opener will not normally hold 3♠ in this auction; holding 3514 in that order and minimum values he would've raised spades. So regardless of whether we are 5/5 or 4/6, we know that there will not be a real fit in spades (unless opener has extras, in which case we are basically always fine).

The 4/6 hand offers a better chance of a fit in diamonds (because we have more diamonds). In fact opener has to have ten round cards for there not to be a diamond fit (assuming he raises spades on 3514) and he might've bid 2♥ on a 6♥-4♣ minimum too (depending on agreements and perhaps suit quality). Further, a 6-1 fit often plays okay, in many cases better than a 5-2 fit. Thus the 4/6 hand is much more likely to have a real fit and at least three-level safety than a 5/5 hand.

[Free]

I've always thought it was 5-5 GF.