[SimonFa]

This came up last night in the UK BGP Summer Pairs (Monday) - Board 16, frequencies here http://www.simpairs....&session=005668 if anyone is interested. Like most pairs we did not reach a slam and I was wondering what people thought of:

1. Our bidding
2. How we could get to slam using basic SAYC systems, including cue bidding first round controls

---

I was West and have played with partner quite a few times and she tends to be randomly aggressive and conservative and I still haven't figured her out. She is also the weaker player when it comes to bidding theory, which doesn't make an expert by any stretch of the imagination

My thoughts are that she was too weak for a direct 4NT quantitative raise and at that stage 7H is still an outside possibility
My hearts weren't strong enough for a super accept. Any other bid after my 2H I would have taken as 5/4 or 5/5 but not necessarily a strong hand, although this wasn't an explicit agreement (it is now)
After the key card sign off I wasn't in a position to raise to 6H even though she didn't know about my A♥

Thanks in advance,

Simon

My comment to her this morning is that all she could do, given our sequence and experience together is take a deep breath and and go for it.

[Antrax]

4NT probably shouldn't be RKCB for hearts here, since the NT opener could have only 2 (and he doesn't know you have six hearts). What people often use here is a Texas transfer (4♦ as a transfer to 4♥) after which hearts are established as trump, so 4NT is key card.
Hearing your partner say she has one keycard, you know you're missing only one. Why sign off?

[SimonFa]

Antrax, on 2011-July-26, 04:51, said:

4NT probably shouldn't be RKCB for hearts here, since the NT opener could have only 2 (and he doesn't know you have six hearts). What people often use here is a Texas transfer (4♦ as a transfer to 4♥) after which hearts are established as trump, so 4NT is key card.
Hearing your partner say she has one keycard, you know you're missing only one. Why sign off?

It was the other way round, I was was West, and as I said partner bows hot and cold with her bidding style.

[Zelandakh]

RKCB is a convention to find out if you are missing 2 cards which are likely to mean slam is bad "off the top". You never use it if you would not bid slam holding 4 key cards. I think Responder also has to have a way of showing 1-suited slam interest while consulting partner which you suggest is not possible in your current system. Note also that it is more common to play 4NT in this sequence as quantitative, something like a 5332 16 count.

There are many possible solutions to this but most are unsuitable for this forum. However, it is simple to play 1NT - 3H as natural with slam interest to start a cue auction. If you just want to RKCB you can follow 3H with 4NT and have gained a little information along the way, and if you only have a slam try you can make a cue bid. In any case, in keeping with the first paragraph, once East decides the hand is worth slam they are duty-bound to bid it upon finding that 4 key cards are held.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

There are some systems ( over the 1NT opening ) which tend to be a bit complicated for Responder to get more info in a slammish situation ( gnasher has one as does Zel and myself ).

But Zel here offers a simpler approach which actually is used by some experts -- namely the 3H-jump by Responder:

"... 1NT - 3H as natural with slam interest to start a cue auction. "....

[Cyberyeti]

Firstly, it's not a great slam so I wouldn't be too worried about missing it.

Secondly your methods really hamstring you, 4N is normally quantitative in this sequence, if you use 4♠ as asking, you can enquire about the queen of trumps and won't miss the slam when it's laydown like when partner has Q♥ instead of the two jacks.

What do you play 1N-3♥ as ? (I play a weak no trump habitually so where we're in a slammish auction, responder can bid 3♥ with a 6 card suit to put the weaker (12-14) hand down on the table). Here, 3♥ would actually save you space as partner can just bid 4♥ to show 3 card support and no side first round control by your methods, cue bidding firsts and seconds would work better on this hand as you'd know about K♠ and lack of A♦ before 4♥. Again 4♠ to ask for aces is key here, as you'll find out you're missing A♦ and Q♥ and probably not bid the slam.

[mike777]

Your bidding was fine except 4nt should be quantative. West can then bid 6nt over 4nt.


West has 15-17, east is worth around 16-17 or so.

[daveharty]

A couple of thoughts:

--I'm not sure why you would want to be in a slam missing a keycard and the trump queen. Just because it makes on this particular day doesn't make it a good slam.

--Agree with everyone who has mentioned that 4NT should be quantitative on your auction. West has a clear pass over 4NT, in my opinion.

--I think Zelandakh's suggestion of using 1NT-3M as a natural, slammish hand is quite good. I disagree that one should never use RKCB if you aren't prepared to bid a slam off one keycard, though; I would amend that slightly and say you shouldn't use RKCB if you aren't prepared to make a decision over any response partner might give. If RKCB allows you to find out that you are missing both a keycard and the trump queen, and allows you to stop in five of the agreed suit, then I wouldn't say categorically that you have made a mistake in using it.

--The last point highlights why some people feel there is a slight theoretical advantage in using 1430 responses to RKCB, rather than 0314. I read somewhere that the queen ask is most likely to be needed after a response showing 1 keycard; if that is true, then it makes sense for that response to be the "cheapest" response to 4NT. Had you been using 1430 responses, the auction might have gone:

1NT - 4D (Texas transfer)
4H - 4NT (RKCB)
5C (1 or 4) - 5D (queen ask)
5H (don't have it) - pass

Maybe not the best theoretical auction but certainly normal. Even here, with more complete information, the only way to bid the slam is to hold your breath and take the plunge; not unreasonable if you need a top or a swing, but it should be done with the realization that you are not bidding an "odds on" slam.

[melind0908]

SimonFa, on 2011-July-26, 04:45, said:

This came up last night in the UK BGP Summer Pairs (Monday) - Board 16, frequencies here http://www.simpairs....&session=005668 if anyone is interested. Like most pairs we did not reach a slam and I was wondering what people thought of:

1. Our bidding
2. How we could get to slam using basic SAYC systems, including cue bidding first round controls

---

I was West and have played with partner quite a few times and she tends to be randomly aggressive and conservative and I still haven't figured her out. She is also the weaker player when it comes to bidding theory, which doesn't make an expert by any stretch of the imagination

My thoughts are that she was too weak for a direct 4NT quantitative raise and at that stage 7H is still an outside possibility
My hearts weren't strong enough for a super accept. Any other bid after my 2H I would have taken as 5/4 or 5/5 but not necessarily a strong hand, although this wasn't an explicit agreement (it is now)
After the key card sign off I wasn't in a position to raise to 6H even though she didn't know about my A♥

Thanks in advance,

Simon

My comment to her this morning is that all she could do, given our sequence and experience together is take a deep breath and and go for it.

[melind0908]

When I click the diagram it shows 4nt as being RKCB 0314. Your thoughts 'she was too weak for a quantitative raise' is inconsistant with the post. Did you think this was RKCB 0314 or quantitative? Still, I would like to say that the values in the East hand are primary. West does not need the ♠ J and adding the ♥ Q would make this slam vertually cold and make your hand 17hcp!. I also notice that 3nt making 6 gets 60% of the matchpoints. So if your interpretation of 4nt is that it is quantitative then passing is a LA (logical alternative). Disregard results. Evaluate your hand according to methods used. Is your hand 17 or a good 16? And if your interpretation of 4nt was that it represented RCKB 0314 then you must trust your partner and pass 5♥. You do not know the key card count and she does. I like the bidding in the post that suggests a texas transfer showing 6 hearts. Your hand does not go up in value, but, it does not go down either. Playing matchpoints you should opt for nt. If this were IMPs and vulnerable as you are 6♥would be a reasonable contract even with the bidding the way it is shown.

[Zelandakh]

daveharty, on 2011-July-26, 08:50, said:

I disagree that one should never use RKCB if you aren't prepared to bid a slam off one keycard, though;

You are correct here of course and I was perhaps over-simplifying. It is OK to sign-off in 5 if you are going to make a queen ask after the response that shows the partnership holds 4. Note however that with the J and 10 slam is usually still good.

daveharty, on 2011-July-26, 08:50, said:

I read somewhere that the queen ask is most likely to be needed after a response showing 1 keycard

It is not so much that the queen ask is more often required, although that is probably true, but rather that 'normal' hands have 1 keycard much more often than 0. For very strong hands it is actually better to be playing 3014 as 3 is more common than 4. However that leads to possibilities which are definitely not B/I material.

[daveharty]

Zelandakh, on 2011-July-26, 10:55, said:

It is not so much that the queen ask is more often required, although that is probably true, but rather that 'normal' hands have 1 keycard much more often than 0. For very strong hands it is actually better to be playing 3014 as 3 is more common than 4. However that leads to possibilities which are definitely not B/I material.

I was referring specifically to the situation where the 4NT bidder needs to make the decision about whether to continue to look for slam even after discovering the partnership is missing a key. In that case, it's obviously advantageous to have the more likely answer be cheaper, thus allowing for a queen ask more often. Presumably, if there is no key missing, it doesn't much matter which flavor of RKCB you are using, since you won't be signing off at the five level anyway.

You are probably right that this is getting off track a little! My main point earlier was (supposed to be) that it's not a particularly good slam, and even having somewhat more sophisticated tools and better agreements isn't going to "help" bid slams like this (in fact it will probably keep you out of them). I really don't think the OP should be worrying about not being there, and I hope the discussion has helped clarify their agreements about their 1NT system.

[Stephen Tu]

daveharty, on 2011-July-26, 11:15, said:

My main point earlier was (supposed to be) that it's not a particularly good slam.

Why is this not a particularly good slam? It's 57.9% to pick up the hearts (2-2, stiff Q, QTxx onside). That's plenty good. Now with an EIGHT card fit, it's not a good slam.

It's normal playing Jacoby + Texas for 2d followed by 4h rebid to be a 6322 slam invite. Then opener can maybe take a rosy view of the third trump + 16 hcp and bid 6nt after asking key cards, choosing 6nt over 6h since no ruffing value.

On the actual auction, 4nt should be quantitative (hearts expected only 5 cds), again opener can just decide that 3 cd support + 16 hcp is enough, (with only 5 cd suit, responder would need more in high cards to make an invite than holding 6 cds).

[daveharty]

Stephen Tu, on 2011-July-26, 16:23, said:

Why is this not a particularly good slam? It's 57.9% to pick up the hearts (2-2, stiff Q, QTxx onside). That's plenty good. Now with an EIGHT card fit, it's not a good slam.

LOL you're right of course, I was laboring under the impression that it was an 8 card fit. A 58% slam is better than I had been thinking. It's still not great, but I would want to be there.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Responder can find out about keycards and the trump Q BELOW the 5H level by using Gerber ( RKC )-after-Transfer since the B & I Police won't let you splinter .

[Antrax]

What police lets you splinter with a doubleton?

[Cyberyeti]

Stephen Tu, on 2011-July-26, 16:23, said:

Why is this not a particularly good slam? It's 57.9% to pick up the hearts (2-2, stiff Q, QTxx onside). That's plenty good. Now with an EIGHT card fit, it's not a good slam.

It's not a good slam in this competition because you're probably on a 60%+ score for 3N if 6♥ makes and 95% if it fails, why gamble, no trump game is the place to be.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Antrax, on 2011-July-26, 21:36, said:

What police lets you splinter with a doubleton?

What I meant by it is that 4C! is not needed ( " not allowed here by the B & I Police " ) to show a splinter ( over the 2H transfer acceptance ) ... so that frees-up the 4C!-jump for RKC-Gerber for Hts .

[Antrax]

Oh. Do you play 2♦-2♥,4♣ as a splinter? How do you show spade shortness vs. slam try?

[Zelandakh]

Antrax, on 2011-July-27, 07:17, said:

Oh. Do you play 2♦-2♥,4♣ as a splinter? How do you show spade shortness vs. slam try?

As I was trying to say in my first post, I do not think these methods are suitable for the B/I forum. Both Don's method and mine are available on the forums if you run a search or perhaps start a thread in a different forum. In the simpler methods I suggested above the slam try would respond 3H over 1NT while with spade shortage the bidding is 1NT - 2D - 2H - 3S.