[quiddity]

2/1, forcing NT. Is the sequence 1♠-1NT; 2♥-3♥ generally played as invitational or "courtesy"? And a related question: what is the bottom range for 1♠-1NT; 3♥? How do you avoid missing game with 15-17 opposite 9-10 with a heart fit?

[helene_t]

3♥ shows a hand that sees some game perspective but can't commit to game. Something like 8-10 points. With 15-17 opener will bid game.

[wyman]

1S-1N; 3X (X not spades) is game forcing, so your range on 1S-1N; 2H is any non-GF hand.

Therefore, 3H is not a courtesy, but with any hand with a fit that sees game potential, 3H should be bid. This is also why we give false preference (to 2S in this case) often. Sometimes opener has _just_ enough to make one more try with a non-GF hand.

[jmcw]

Opener is forced to reply, a non jump rebid in a lower ranking suit has a fairly wide range perhaps 11+ to 16 depending on your style.

Typically, responder will need about 10 or 11 points and at least a 4 card fit to invite. I would raise to 3♥ on something like:

Kx Axxxx xxxx x or Kx Kxxx AJx xxxx but pass 2♥ on xx QJxx KJx Kxxx.

[quiddity]

I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts?

[MrAce]

quiddity, on 2011-July-20, 12:41, said:

I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts?

NO !

[wyman]

quiddity, on 2011-July-20, 12:41, said:

I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts?

No, you either raise or pass.

[ArtK78]

Warning - partial hijack approaching!

The sequence 1♠ - 1NT (forcing) - 3♥ is played by a number of experts as showing 5-5 in the majors. With 5-4 in the majors, opener bids 3♣ (artificial). Responder can bid 3♥ with 4 hearts over the 3♣ rebid to locate the potential 4-4 fit.

Personally, I play a more involved structure over 1M-1NT (forcing) in which it is possible for opener to show invitational 5-5 hands as well as a variety of forcing hands. I have presented the structure previously and it was written up in The Bridge World quite a number of years ago.

[Lurpoa]

MrAce, on 2011-July-20, 12:45, said:

NO !

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥



WHY ?

[pooltuna]

Lurpoa, on 2011-July-20, 14:49, said:

♥♥


WHY ?

because a 44 fit rates to play better than a 52 fit. of course you have to guess that partner is 54xy rather than 64uv. which is more likely

[whereagles]

quiddity, on 2011-July-20, 12:41, said:

I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts?

Probably no, although I see that strategy has some advantages.

[the hog]

quiddity, on 2011-July-20, 12:41, said:

I guess that's another related question: would you ever give false preference as responder with two spades and four hearts?

No! Why would you?

[han]

ArtK78, on 2011-July-20, 12:54, said:

Warning - partial hijack approaching!

The sequence 1♠ - 1NT (forcing) - 3♥ is played by a number of experts as showing 5-5 in the majors. With 5-4 in the majors, opener bids 3♣ (artificial). Responder can bid 3♥ with 4 hearts over the 3♣ rebid to locate the potential 4-4 fit.

Personally, I play a more involved structure over 1M-1NT (forcing) in which it is possible for opener to show invitational 5-5 hands as well as a variety of forcing hands. I have presented the structure previously and it was written up in The Bridge World quite a number of years ago.

There is also Gazilli.

[mikeh]

ArtK78, on 2011-July-20, 12:54, said:

Warning - partial hijack approaching!

The sequence 1♠ - 1NT (forcing) - 3♥ is played by a number of experts as showing 5-5 in the majors. With 5-4 in the majors, opener bids 3♣ (artificial). Responder can bid 3♥ with 4 hearts over the 3♣ rebid to locate the potential 4-4 fit.

Personally, I play a more involved structure over 1M-1NT (forcing) in which it is possible for opener to show invitational 5-5 hands as well as a variety of forcing hands. I have presented the structure previously and it was written up in The Bridge World quite a number of years ago.

The more common approach, over the artificial 3♣, which will often be based on a real black 2 suiter, is to use 3♦ by responder as artificial, to allow opener to rebid 3♥ with 4 hearts, 3♠ with a power one-suiter, 3N with 4♣ and willingness to play 3N, and 4♣ with a radical two suiter.. 3♥ over 3♣ shows long hearts. This method was described, many years ago, in the BW as Jeff's Magic Elixir, if memory serves. I've played variants of this for a long time.

[gnasher]

The reason you might give false preference on 2=4 in the majors is because you play 3♥ as invitational, and you're too weak for that, but can envisage game opposite a hand in the 17-18 range. By bidding 2♠, you give partner another chance to bid if he's fairly strong, but avoid carrying the partnership to game with 14 opposite 8.

Would I ever do that? Yes, if I were obliged by my methods to play 3♥ as genuinely invitational, and especially playing IMPs, I would give false preference on something like a 2=4 8-count.

Obviously, I'd prefer to be playing better methods. Apart from what has been mentioned here already, there are also:
- Play transfers by opener, so with a 5-4 18-count he can bid 1♠-1NT;2♦-2♥;2NT.
- Play 1♠-1NT;2♣ as a puppet to 2♦, after which 2♥ shows a better hand than a direct 2♥.
- Include your balanced invitations in one of your two-level responses. Then you have an extra way to raise hearts: 1♠-1NT;2♥-2NT.

[Lurpoa]

han, on 2011-July-22, 06:56, said:

There is also Gazilli.

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥
and also Ladinski

[the hog]

gnasher, on 2011-July-22, 11:09, said:

The reason you might give false preference on 2=4 in the majors is because you play 3♥ as invitational, and you're too weak for that, but can envisage game opposite a hand in the 17-18 range. By bidding 2♠, you give partner another chance to bid if he's fairly strong, but avoid carrying the partnership to game with 14 opposite 8.

Would I ever do that? Yes, if I were obliged by my methods to play 3♥ as genuinely invitational, and especially playing IMPs, I would give false preference on something like a 2=4 8-count.

Obviously, I'd prefer to be playing better methods. Apart from what has been mentioned here already, there are also:
- Play transfers by opener, so with a 5-4 18-count he can bid 1♠-1NT;2♦-2♥;2NT.
- Play 1♠-1NT;2♣ as a puppet to 2♦, after which 2♥ shows a better hand than a direct 2♥.
- Include your balanced invitations in one of your two-level responses. Then you have an extra way to raise hearts: 1♠-1NT;2♥-2NT.

With all due respects, a treatment where you are forced to give preference to playing in a 5-2 fit where a 4-4 M fit is available leaves a lot to be desired systemically.

[whereagles]

That is probably correct, but you can't solve the problem without artificial means.