[paulg]

---

You are West and decide to lead the ♥K. Partner encourages with the ♥3 and declarer follows with the ♥5.

What do you lead at trick two?

[mohitz]

If declarer has AKTxxxx xx x Axx, we need to cash diamond Ace and return heart. Otherwise, he will just throw a diamond and will be able to ruff fourth heart in dummy.

This defense will work out poorly if declarer has a diamond void, say AKTxxxx xxx - Axx but i will take my chances.

EDIT: I overlooked that with the second hand, declarer can always make.

This post has been edited by mohitz: 2011-July-18, 01:39

[Free]

♦A followed by ♥J, to show that we lead from a doubleton and not from KQJ.

[rhm]

If declarer has a doubleton ♥ and a singleton ♦, cashing the ♦A is right. But there is a much more likely reason why you should cash the ♦A.
Assume declarer has the ♥Q. When you continue with the ♥J partner is likely to assume that the lead was from ♥KQJ.
True, overtaking the ♥J is unlikely to cost, but I rather win the board than the post mortem.
Partner may have a problem if, from his perspective, declarer could have ♥xxx, when in fact declarer has ♥Qxxx. If declarer had ♥xxx and you ♥KQJ (instead of the ♦A), the trump promotion must occur on the fourth round.
Cashing the ♦A might wake up partner that your lead was not from a pedestrian ♥KQJ and partner can now safely overtake and shoot back a ♥ irrespective of whether the lead was from ♥KQJ or ♥KJ.
Cashing the ♦A could loose if declarer is void in ♦ without the ♣A.
Declarer could have ♠AKxxxxx,♥QTxx,♦-,♣xx, but most would probably preempt immediately with such a hand

Rainer Herrmann

[paulg]

At the time I did not feel there was much chance of confusion in the heart suit. With ♥KQJ I would typically continue with the 'do not overtake' queen (since with KQ doubleton I would lead the queen [edit] at trick 1) rather than the 'you can overtake' jack.

I was more worried about whether partner would ever encourage without the ace of hearts.

[whereagles]

Seems like ♦A, heart is normal. Pard will have to sort it out, as we have no other way to play the hand.

[MrAce]

deleted

[xxhong]

I think J is asking to overtake. So it appears to me that with HKQ tight, I'd cash DA and play HQ next to ask for an overtake.

rhm, on 2011-July-18, 03:12, said:

If declarer has a doubleton ♥ and a singleton ♦, cashing the ♦A is right. But there is a much more likely reason why you should cash the ♦A.
Assume declarer has the ♥Q. When you continue with the ♥J partner is likely to assume that the lead was from ♥KQJ.
True, overtaking the ♥J is unlikely to cost, but I rather win the board than the post mortem.
Partner may have a problem if, from his perspective, declarer could have ♥xxx, when in fact declarer has ♥Qxxx. If declarer had ♥xxx and you ♥KQJ (instead of the ♦A), the trump promotion must occur on the fourth round.
Cashing the ♦A might wake up partner that your lead was not from a pedestrian ♥KQJ and partner can now safely overtake and shoot back a ♥ irrespective of whether the lead was from ♥KQJ or ♥KJ.
Cashing the ♦A could loose if declarer is void in ♦ without the ♣A.
Declarer could have ♠AKxxxxx,♥QTxx,♦-,♣xx, but most would probably preempt immediately with such a hand

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

A risk in cashing ♦A is that declarer has something like AK10xxxxx Axx x x. However the trump promotion seems more likely, so I'd cash ♦A.

[Phil]

gnasher, on 2011-July-18, 12:21, said:

A risk in cashing ♦A is that declarer has something like AK10xxxxx Axx x x. However the trump promotion seems more likely, so I'd cash ♦A.

Should partner encourage hearts just looking at the Queen?

[gnasher]

Phil, on 2011-July-18, 13:10, said:

Should partner encourage hearts just looking at the Queen?

I was assuming that partner would think we had AK, but having looked at PaulG's convention card I realise that might be incorrect.

[paulg]

gnasher, on 2011-July-18, 15:27, said:

I was assuming that partner would think we had AK, but having looked at PaulG's convention card I realise that might be incorrect.

Systemically my lead of the king would be from AK doubleton, AKJ, KQx(+), KQJ, Kx, but not AKx(+) nor KQ10.

As I said earlier, one problem I saw at the table was whether partner would encourage with the queen of hearts. One time he may encourage with the queen is when he does not want a club switch. Another is when he thinks I hold AKJ.

I thought the real danger hands for declarer were AK10xxxx Axx xx x or AK10xxxx Axx x xx. Both of these would bid and play like this. I did not think that hands with a diamond void would tend to bid 4S directly.

In the end it did not matter what you did, as declarer held AK10xxxx xx xx Ax. However I think it is probably right to cash the ace of diamonds and continue with the jack of hearts.

[xxhong]

Another possible hand is AKTxxxx Axx xxx -, here, cashing DA can be really bad.

paulg, on 2011-July-18, 16:05, said:

Systemically my lead of the king would be from AK doubleton, AKJ, KQx(+), KQJ, Kx, but not AKx(+) nor KQ10.

As I said earlier, one problem I saw at the table was whether partner would encourage with the queen of hearts. One time he may encourage with the queen is when he does not want a club switch. Another is when he thinks I hold AKJ.

I thought the real danger hands for declarer were AK10xxxx Axx xx x or AK10xxxx Axx x xx. Both of these would bid and play like this. I did not think that hands with a diamond void would tend to bid 4S directly.

In the end it did not matter what you did, as declarer held AK10xxxx xx xx Ax. However I think it is probably right to cash the ace of diamonds and continue with the jack of hearts.

[MrAce]

xxhong, on 2011-July-18, 11:37, said:

I think J is asking to overtake. So it appears to me that with HKQ tight, I'd cash DA and play HQ next to ask for an overtake.

AKxxxxx
xx
x
Axx

Cashing ♦A has nothing to do with pd overtaking or not, if u dont cash u cant defeat if he has stiff ♦. Pd MUST overtake regardless of u play J or Q after K, he has nothing to lose by taking over and playing it back.

xxhong, on 2011-July-18, 16:22, said:

Another possible hand is AKTxxxx Axx xxx -, here, cashing DA can be really bad.

And if declarer had

AKxxxxx
Axx
xxx
void

you wont be able to defeat regardless of what u play anyway

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2011-July-18, 17:10, said:

AKxxxxx
xx
x
Axx

Cashing ♦A has nothing to do with pd overtaking or not, if u dont cash u cant defeat if he has stiff ♦. Pd MUST overtake regardless of u play J or Q after K, he has nothing to lose by taking over and playing it back.

If it were that simple....

You can have ♥KQx (no ♦A) and declarer ♥Jxx. If partner overtakes the queen, curtains.
You can have ♥KQJ tight (no ♦A) and declarer ♥xxx. If partner overtakes the 2nd ♥ honor, curtains.
You can have ♥KQ tight and the ♦A. If partner does not overtake the ♥queen, curtains.
You can have ♥KJ tight and the ♦A and declarer the ♥queen. If partner does not overtake the ♥jack, curtains.

To me all these cases are possible. Unfortunately my partners are rarely clairvoyant. Somehow you have to differentiate.

Rainer Herrmann

[MrAce]

rhm, on 2011-July-19, 05:36, said:

If it were that simple....

You can have ♥KQx (no ♦A) and declarer ♥Jxx. If partner overtakes the queen, curtains.
You can have ♥KQJ tight (no ♦A) and declarer ♥xxx. If partner overtakes the 2nd ♥ honor, curtains.
You can have ♥KQ tight and the ♦A. If partner does not overtake the ♥queen, curtains.
You can have ♥KJ tight and the ♦A and declarer the ♥queen. If partner does not overtake the ♥jack, curtains.

To me all these cases are possible. Unfortunately my partners are rarely clairvoyant. Somehow you have to differentiate.

Rainer Herrmann

We are all aware of that Rainer

You can have ♥KQx (no ♦A) and declarer ♥Jxx. You should play Q and pd has no reason to overtake unless he has a side trick
You can have ♥KQJ tight (no ♦A) and declarer ♥xxx. Same thing as above
You can have ♥KQ tight and the ♦A. You cash ♦A and play Q, pd overtakes and plays 3rd. From KQx u shd play low after ♦A
You can have ♥KJ tight and the ♦A and declarer the ♥queen. Same as above, you show your side trick first (♦A)

I know it doesnt cover everything, we may have a sure side trick that we are not aware of in some hands etc etc. What i meant was specifically for this hand, it wasnt our MAIN worry if pd shd overtake or not, he should since he has no reason not to and nothing to lose, but if we dont cash declarer could discard stiff ♦ on 3rd ♥.

[xxhong]

Oh, I overlooked the relative position of the hand and the dummy. I though I was sitting behind the dummy. I usually take the bidding tray as the center.

MrAce, on 2011-July-18, 17:10, said:

AKxxxxx
xx
x
Axx

Cashing ♦A has nothing to do with pd overtaking or not, if u dont cash u cant defeat if he has stiff ♦. Pd MUST overtake regardless of u play J or Q after K, he has nothing to lose by taking over and playing it back.





And if declarer had

AKxxxxx
Axx
xxx
void

you wont be able to defeat regardless of what u play anyway

[MrAce]

xxhong, on 2011-July-19, 14:33, said:

Oh, I overlooked the relative position of the hand and the dummy. I though I was sitting behind the dummy. I usually take the bidding tray as the center.

Yup, that happens to me a lot too, the green area and the bidding box confused me a lot in the past, always thought bidding tray was center..