[Hilver]

You hold in first seat, playing Precision:
♠ A Q
♥ 10
♦ A Q 10 9 7 5
♣ K 9 8 7

What would open? 1C or 1D?

Thx

Jan

[Free]

Yay I can vote both options!

I'd open 1♦ because I prefer not to overbid on borderline hands. If opps intervene after a 1♣ opening we'll have a hard time bidding to a decent spot. If I open 1♦ on the other hand, I'll be able to push and show good distribution and strength, even if opps intervene. Plus, I don't want to be in game opposite a random 8-pointer with this hand. My rule of thumb is to never upgrade to a strong 1♣ opening unless you can make game opposite any GF response from partner (which doesn't mean I upgrade every hand that wants to play game opposite 8+HCP in partner's hand!).

[mtvesuvius]

I tend not to upgrade hands unless I am worried about something bad happening if I don't. Even then, I don't usually upgrade unless my long suit is a major -- Otherwise it's too hard to show my hand somewhat accurately if they compete. I'm happy to open this 1♦.

[kayin801]

1♦, despite this being a pretty 15 count. 1♣ isn't terrible though, just (in my mind) systemically wrong. I think it's a tougher question as to what to rebid after partner's expected response of 1 of a major, since I think 2♣ and 3♦ are both okay.

[bigtrain]

1C is the clear choice. Opening 1D makes the hand impossible to describe... 1D-1x//2D is a huge underbid but 1D-1x//3D buries the clubs. Also the hand easily values 17 or 18 points.

[mycroft]

Deleted - I "replied" when I should have edited. Full comment next.

[mycroft]

mycroft, on 2011-July-18, 15:00, said:

As mtvesuvius says, I don't upgrade to 1♣ unless I can visualize a problem if I don't. Here, I have great options - 1♦ then 3♦ get the point across really well, and if partner bids 1NT, I might just 3NT and gamble. If they overcall, at least I got my suit (sort of) in, and partner has lots of options to tell me about potential raises.

Edit: yeah, 3♦ buries the clubs; but with AQT9xx K9xx do I care much?

I *can* see a problem if I open 1♣ - we'll be at 3 of a major before my rebid. And it probably makes. Do I want my partner guessing what to do after 1♣-X (majors)-<some positive>-3M; p-p? No. And if we look for 3NT, they already know what to lead.

Swap the pointed suits and I might open 1♣; at least I have the boss suit to kick around.

[bigtrain]

Personally, I welcome competition over my strong clubs. It frequently aids declarer play and adds the defend option to our menu of choices. So, fear of that competition has little impact on my decision to upgrade. The main "upgrade" issues being true hand value and most effective/efficient auction.

[mtvesuvius]

bigtrain, on 2011-July-18, 15:31, said:

Personally, I welcome competition over my strong clubs. It frequently aids declarer play and adds the defend option to our menu of choices. So, fear of that competition has little impact on my decision to upgrade. The main "upgrade" issues being true hand value and most effective/efficient auction.

True, but if the concern is being able to show clubs at some point, starting with 1♣ seems to put you one step behind. Why is this hand really worth so much? The AQ♠ aren't pulling their weight. [Not trying to argue, just interested in why you feel this hand is worth an upgrade, as obviously you have a lot more experience in these situations than I do.]

[mycroft]

I like it when they come in as well - because usually they have no idea what to do besides "bid something".

It's when they get raised that I don't like it. 2-1 in the majors is when they'll get raised.

Are you sure with this hand that you're winning the partscore battle - and that you'll know after 1C-X-<something>-3S? I'm not.

I'm happy to upgrade hands that look like I'm going to win the auction with. I don't expect to win this one, lots of points or no, if partner doesn't take the right decision. And therefore, I'm not going to go out of my way to start an auction that will likely make me captain - I'd rather give partner what she needs to be captain, if I can.

[the hog]

This is an easy 1D bid. Sometimes you can be maximum when you open.
Bigtrain, you comment about losing the Cs. Open this 1c and I would suggest that you have more more chance of losing the Cs than with a 1D opening.

[dake50]

This is just the hand type I use 3D for: good 6+D, weak Majors, 14-18.
I open that.
Have you all tallied your +/- (IMP or MP) for your 3D as weak preempt?
I didn't like my tally.
Use something else - intermediate jump overcall opening.

[semeai]

This hand is certainly worth 16+. For example K&R gives 18.9.

I don't usually play precision, so I don't have a feel for borderline minor suit hands. Here this is almost downgrading, but maybe it makes sense in the minors, thinking that your jump rebid will make up for it. On this hand, though, bigtrain's comment makes sense, and he'd also have the experience to know what works certainly.

For comparison: Do people open 1C on AQ T KQ8752 AJ74?

K&R gives 18 on this one.

[mtvesuvius]

dake50, on 2011-July-18, 19:11, said:

This is just the hand type I use 3D for: good 6+D, weak Majors, 14-18.
I open that.
Have you all tallied your +/- (IMP or MP) for your 3D as weak preempt?
I didn't like my tally.
Use something else - intermediate jump overcall opening.

LOL

[the hog]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-July-18, 20:17, said:

LOL

redouble lol

[Free]

Please guys, stop LOL-ing and redouble LOL-ing, before Lurpoa and her gang start hijacking this threat. This is a good question.

semeai, on 2011-July-18, 19:38, said:

This hand is certainly worth 16+. For example K&R gives 18.9.

The hand is indeed worth more than 16HCP, but that's not really the point when playing precision. Sometimes it's just easier to start with a limited opening and push later on to show your maximum and distributional hand. You don't need to open 1♣ because the hand is worth 16+HCP, you need to open 1♣ because you have the points.

In many cases it's difficult to describe your hand when opponents interfere after a strong 1♣ opening (which is quite frequent). Here the auction can easily start 1♣-(3♥)-... and you'll have a lot of trouble. If you open 1♦, you can rebid them or bid ♣, in both cases showing a nice distributional hand. Getting your suits in early is more important than the strength your hand is worth. Limited openings allow you to bid your suits, a strong 1♣ opening does not.

Also note that distributional hands with 14-15HCP will probably get more interference than the same distributions with 16-17HCP (because opps tend to have more values). Therefore it's pretty unwise to upgrade your hand which results in a difficult auction. Pretty much the only reason to upgrade hands is if you have like 9 tricks in a Major suit contract.

semeai, on 2011-July-18, 19:38, said:

For comparison: Do people open 1C on AQ T KQ8752 AJ74?

K&R gives 18 on this one.

This hand has 16HCP, so I'll open 1♣ because I pretty much 'have to'. It's as unwise to downgrade hands into limited openings as it is to upgrade hands into a strong opening imo.

[whereagles]

1♦ + 3♦ seems canonical. Who cares about clubs anyway?

A downside of opening 1♣ is pard with 5-4 majors and a decent 7 is likely to reply positively (those hands are typically hard to bid if you respond the negative 1♦), in which case you'll likely end up in a trickless 3NT.

[the hog]

Free, on 2011-July-19, 05:43, said:

Please guys, stop LOL-ing and redouble LOL-ing, before Lurpoa and her gang start hijacking this threat. This is a good question.


The hand is indeed worth more than 16HCP, but that's not really the point when playing precision. Sometimes it's just easier to start with a limited opening and push later on to show your maximum and distributional hand. You don't need to open 1♣ because the hand is worth 16+HCP, you need to open 1♣ because you have the points.

In many cases it's difficult to describe your hand when opponents interfere after a strong 1♣ opening (which is quite frequent). Here the auction can easily start 1♣-(3♥)-... and you'll have a lot of trouble. If you open 1♦, you can rebid them or bid ♣, in both cases showing a nice distributional hand. Getting your suits in early is more important than the strength your hand is worth. Limited openings allow you to bid your suits, a strong 1♣ opening does not.

Also note that distributional hands with 14-15HCP will probably get more interference than the same distributions with 16-17HCP (because opps tend to have more values). Therefore it's pretty unwise to upgrade your hand which results in a difficult auction. Pretty much the only reason to upgrade hands is if you have like 9 tricks in a Major suit contract.


This hand has 16HCP, so I'll open 1♣ because I pretty much 'have to'. It's as unwise to downgrade hands into limited openings as it is to upgrade hands into a strong opening imo.

Free, both the volcanic one's and my comment referred to a 3D opening showing this hand. However you are correct, a lol does not add anything to the debate. However to use a 3D opening for this seems ridiculous to me.

[mtvesuvius]

the hog, on 2011-July-19, 19:27, said:

Free, both the volcanic one's and my comment referred to a 3D opening showing this hand. However you are correct, a lol does not add anything to the debate. However to use a 3D opening for this seems ridiculous to me.

These were my thoughts as well -- I figured a LOL would do the trick.

Just the thought of playing 3♦ as that is making me sick to my stomach.

[WellSpyder]

mtvesuvius, on 2011-July-19, 20:48, said:

Just the thought of playing 3♦ as that is making me sick to my stomach.

This is too strong for an intermediate 3♦as I play it. But I have found in the one partnership where I play 3♣/♦ as showing 10-14 points and a good 6-card suit rather than as a more traditional pre-empt that it can be a big points winner. The biggest gains are probably when oppo overcall in much the same way as they would over a normal pre-empt only to find that 3rd hand can make a penalty double. But if they decide not to overcall they can still easily be pre-empted out of game. There are also hands on which this opening makes it easy for us to bid a low point-count 3N, of course.