[AlexJonson]

If you have a rule about shuffling (good idea IMO) then a breach is an infringement (not necessarily the obsessional UI at Teams, but maybe UI at Pairs if there are side bets).

In 'normal space' I'm with the suggestion that I would usually play the hand and move on.

[Vampyr]

axman, on 2011-July-21, 12:30, said:

Speaking to the validity of the assertion that an unsorted hand contains ‘too much’ information to be useful I will recount my personal experience:

I don't think anyone has mentioned unsorted hands.

[gordontd]

pran, on 2011-July-21, 11:57, said:

I'm puzzled:
How can a player pass information to his teammates by sorting his hand in any particular way? Will it not be one of his opponents in the other room who picks up the cards he has passed on after playing?

(Assuming this thread concentrates on matches for teams of four where the cards are kept strictly within one and the same match)

I didn't think this thread was just about teams, but the answer to your question is that players can pass information to their team-mates by failing to sort an occasional hand - for example to warn of bad breaks and suggest caution, or to announce things sitting well and suggest bidding more. It's easy to notice that your opponent sorts a hand when s/he hasn't previously.

[axman]

Vampyr, on 2011-July-21, 13:43, said:

I don't think anyone has mentioned unsorted hands.

Vampyr, on 2011-July-21, 11:24, said:

But you are looking at it backwards. A shuffled hand has too much "information" -- or in fact none; since it is assumed to be shuffled, any peculiarities in the arrangement of the cards can be put down to chance. A sorted hand, on the other hand , can be produced in just a few basic forms; variations on these, or just a misplaced card or two, can convey lots.

It is quite normal to presume that cards situated in an unorganized order have been mixed when they wewe not- as you stated above. I was pointing out that while not necessarily consistently, from time to time it is possible to discern cards that were not mixed- and yes, from which accuraate inferences could be derived that might be used materially- but not necessarily without peril.

[blackshoe]

I tried to post what I thought would be a fairly simple problem to discuss, to wit, what should the TD do if called in the middle of the auction by a player who now says his hand was sorted when he took it out of the board, and what should the player do vis à vis choice of calls. Yes, he should have called the TD right away when he discovered the hand was sorted. He didn't. Yes, it may be that requiring hands to be sorted instead of shuffled would be better. That's not what the current law says, so it's not relevant to this thread. I gave some facts; some want to argue that some other facts might apply. No. The facts are as I gave them.

I still don't have answers to the questions I originally posed, afaics. I would appreciate it if some of you would go back and review the OP, and answer the questions I posed. It would nice to have your rationale, as well. Which laws do you apply, and in what way?

[semeai]

I recall when I was starting out, this would happen occasionally at a particular club I played at. When it did, I tended to announce it to the table. I doubt that would be my solution now, and surely such behavior is frowned upon legally, but it always seemed to have a certain sense of fairness to it (if possibly in a randomizing sort of way), while letting the somewhat casual game go on.

Carry on with the legal discussion.