[rbforster]

Say you have a hand with 5/5 spades and clubs and the 2/1 GF auction starts (by you):

1♠-2♦-?

Will you always bid 3♣ here, regardless of strength? If so, how do you separate weak distributional openers (that worry that partner's likely 3N rebid will go down) vs stronger hands? Would you sometimes rebid 2♠ initially (catchall, not promising 6) and bid (and rebid?) your clubs later? Maybe I can suggest some sequences and you can tell me what you think the difference is (or should be) in terms of shape/strength:

1♠-2♦
3♣-3N
4♣ or 5♣?

1♠-2♦
2♠-2N
3♣ or 4♣?

1♠-2♦
2♠-2N
3♣-3N
4♣ or 5♣?

Thanks!

[MrAce]

Mostly pairs are divided into 3 categories on this subject

1-Those who has no restriction for their 3rd suit minor bid at 3 level
2-Those who has partial restrictions
3-Those who has full restriction unless opener has a reverse strength.

I like to play

1♥--2x
2♠ doesnt promise anything but 5-4 hand.

But having to bid your minor at 3 level after a 2/1 response, consumes too much space. We have restrictions on this one. I can't say we play it as it promise extras but it must be a good looking hand.

KQxxx
Ax
J
QJxxx

is not good enough for us, while

AKxxx
x
xx
KQTxx is good enough. So basically it is not primarily about bean count, but the quality of your beans.

I can confidently say when we bid 3m, we do NOT promise a reverse strength in the means of hcps. But we do promise a reasonable hand. So i guess this puts us in 2nd category in my list.

[aguahombre]

rbforster, on 2011-July-16, 11:31, said:

Say you have a hand with 5/5 spades and clubs and the 2/1 GF auction starts (by you):

1♠-2♦-?

Will you always bid 3♣ here, regardless of strength? If so, how do you separate weak distributional openers (that worry that partner's likely 3N rebid will go down) vs stronger hands?

I believe the meanings of your specific follow-up are dependent upon whether a 3 Club rebid shows extra values, so first things first.

If 1S-2D-3C does show extras, and assuming no unnatural gadget rebids by opener, then there is another option to the 2S catchall. Some people choose to open 1C with the weaker 5-5, rather than 1S. This eliminates the need to mark time with 2S on the given start with a mini, but could create other problems (like getting too high or to the wrong strain after 1c-1H-1S-1NT).

We like opening 1S with all 5-5 openers, and suffer through the 2S catchall.

So, our meanings for the three sequences given are:

--slammish with five clubs...bigger than the 3C bid (which might have just been a nice 15 ish hand.
--either weakish 5-5 or strong 6-4(6-3?), to be clarified hopefully later but assumed to be a suggestion that 3NT might not be a good idea.
--non existent

(in the order presented by OP)

[whereagles]

Shape is very important but if you go all-out shape, you'll get to some ridiculous contracts (e.g. playing hopeless slams or resting in game with 13 tricks).

A mix between shape and strength is preferable and there's an easy solution here. Just rebid your opening suit when the 5-5 is minimum, show the 2nd suit when you have extras (e.g. 15+ or thereabouts).

[peachy]

MrAce aced it IMO.

[fromageGB]

This definitely needs partnership discussion. My two partnerships agree the following rules, which seem to work well in defining the hands :

• A rebid above the level of 2M shows a 15/16 count.
  
  
• With less than that, if you can't bid naturally below 2M, bid 2M which does not guarantee any additional length. After this 2NT from responder is fairly balanced, and asks opener to bid his shape or NT.
  
  
• With more than that, ie 17+, bid initially no higher than 2M, but then when partner signs off in game, come out of the woodwork and make a further bid. This is now slam suggestive, of course. If partner signs off in 3NT, then 4♣ always shows the additional strength.

Applying this method to your sequences :

1♠ 2♦
3♣ 3NT
4♣ is an unusual bid, but would be 15/16, suggesting heart void and that game in any of the suits is likely to be better than 3NT. A 5026 shape?

1♠ 2♦
3♣ 3NT
5♣ is still 15/16, but insisting on clubs.

1♠ 2♦
2♠ 2NT
3♣ is just 5xx4 12-14 at this point, but depending on further bidding, may be 17+ and may have longer black suits.

1♠ 2♦
2♠ 2NT
4♣ is 17/18 and hoping for a slam. Decidedly shapely, probably 5xx5 or 5xx6. 4NT from responder would be to play.

1♠ 2♦
2♠ 2NT
3♣ 3NT
4♣ is 17/18, hoping for a slam in NT, more balanced, typically 5314. 4NT from responder would be to play.

1♠ 2♦
2♠ 2NT
3♣ 3NT
5♣ is unusual, but would be 12-14 and 5xx6, or perhaps 5xx7 and worried about missing the major if he opened 1♣.

We still play this way with primary support. For example,
1♠ 2♥
2♠ 2NT
3♥ shows 3+ hearts and 12-14, whereas
1♠ 2♥
3♥ shows 3+ hearts and 15-16.
In both cases 3♠ from responder would then be "serious 3NT" demanding a cue bid from opener.

There is no worry about missing a 6/2 heart fit playing this way, because responder with 6 hearts would rebid 3♥ rather than 2NT.

So you can consider this more refined/defined approach as an alternative, but it does need clear partnership agreement to avoid misunderstandings.

[mich-b]

We play that rebidding 3♣ requires extra strength , about 15+.
The 5th ♣ is a compensation for being minimum, when you have a ♣ fit , but responder with a misfit (2452 , or 1462) but a strong hand with slam possibilities , will not be able to proceed safely after 3♣ , if the range for that is 12+.

Also , we have the agreement that
1♠ - 2♦
2♠ - 2NT
3♣

shows 5♣s - If responder is interested in a 4-4 fit there , he has to rebid 3♣ rather than 2NT.