[Nu2Br]

Just heard abour "weak-jump-response" to my partners 1-level opening bid, so I'm trying to learn more about this "IN ITS SIMPLEST FORM".

Partner opens 1-suit and I have less than 6 points and a 6 card suit -- so I bid 2-suit as a pre-empt and to tell my partner that "this is my one and only bid". Partner can then bid higher, or pass.

>> Make sense? Is there a min number of points I need for this pre-empt?

>> What if there were an interfering bid from opponent? Would I still bid 2-suit (or even 3-suit)?

>> What if the interfering bid from opponent was DOUBLE? Still OK to bid 2-suit?

Thanks.

[semeai]

Nu2Br, on 2011-July-14, 15:13, said:

Just heard abour "weak-jump-response" to my partners 1-level opening bid, so I'm trying to learn more about this "IN ITS SIMPLEST FORM".

Partner opens 1-suit and I have less than 6 points and a 6 card suit -- so I bid 2-suit as a pre-empt and to tell my partner that "this is my one and only bid". Partner can then bid higher, or pass.

Yes, but 2-suit needs to be a jump response. For example, 1♣-2♥ is a jump response and so with "weak jump responses" agreed, it would be as you say. However, 1♠-2♥ is not a jump response, and it is just a normal response in a suit, showing 10+ points since you've responded at the 2-level.

If you have a weak hand with long hearts and your partner bids 1♠, you can instead jump to 3♥ if you've agreed "weak jump responses." Here you should have 0-6 points and at least 7 hearts, because you're jumping to the 3-level.

A double jump, for example, 1♣-3♥, would be similar (unless you have other agreements about these). Unless you've discussed it specifically, don't bid a double-jump like 1♣-3♥ or 1♠-4♦ because your partner may interpret it as a different convention.

Quote

Make sense? Is there a min number of points I need for this pre-empt?

No minimum number of points, but I wouldn't do it if the suit is not good. For example, I would want a suit like QJxxxx or J98xxx at least for a weak jump to the 2-level. (Add a card for jumps to the 3-level.)

Others may have a slightly different opinion on how good the suit should be.

Quote

What if there were an interfering bid from opponent? Would I still bid 2-suit (or even 3-suit)?

What if the interfering bid from opponent was DOUBLE? Still OK to bid 2-suit?

If you agree to keep using them "in competition" then yes, as long as it's still a jump over the opponent's bid (or double). So 1♣ (1♥) 2♠ would be a weak jump response, but 1♣ (1♠) 2♥ would just be a normal response showing 10+ points, because it's the lowest level at which you can bid hearts.

[Bbradley62]

semeai, on 2011-July-14, 15:56, said:

A double jump, for example, 1♣-3♥, would be similar (unless you have other agreements about these).

No! Double jumps, unless you have other partnership agreements, are splinters (in SAYC and almost all versions of 2/1) showing support for partner's suit and at most one of the suit into which you are jumping.

[semeai]

Bbradley62, on 2011-July-14, 16:00, said:

No! Double jumps, unless you have other partnership agreements, are splinters (in SAYC and almost all versions of 2/1) showing support for partner's suit and at most one of the suit into which you are jumping.

That's why I said "unless you have other agreements," but you're right, maybe I should've left this out in the interests of keeping it to its "simplest form."

Do you think someone asking about weak jump shifts as above plays splinters already?

To Nu2Br: Perhaps you should stay away from the double jumps because your partner may assume it means something else if they know too much.

I've fixed my original post to reflect this.

[Bbradley62]

semeai, on 2011-July-14, 16:04, said:

Do you think someone asking about weak jump shifts as above plays splinters already?

I think that beginners start with SAYC, and 1♣-3♥ and 1♠-4♥ are splinters according to BBO's step-by-step SAYC convention card. Certainly, no one starts playing a system whereby 1♣-1♥ is a simple bid, 1♣-2♥ is a strong jump shift, and 1♣-3♥ is an even stronger jump shift. Weak jump shift normally get added later as players grow away from SAYC.

[semeai]

Bbradley62, on 2011-July-14, 16:13, said:

I think that beginners start with SAYC, and 1♣-3♥ and 1♠-4♥ are splinters according to BBO's step-by-step SAYC convention card. Certainly, no one starts playing a system whereby 1♣-1♥ is a simple bid, 1♣-2♥ is a strong jump shift, and 1♣-3♥ is an even stronger jump shift. Weak jump shift normally get added later as players grow away from SAYC.

It doesn't really matter, but you're right I should've left it out. I've edited my posts above to fix the situation and not recommend the double-jump.

[ggwhiz]

I don't play them or like them with the most common flaw I see as being too strong by lots of players.

Think more about what your max is than your min. Perhaps you should have no more than 1/2 a trick on defence (unless the Ace of your suit) meaning you really need the 10's and 9's when vul.

Others that do play them will have better advice.

[peachy]

Bbradley62, on 2011-July-14, 16:00, said:

No! Double jumps, unless you have other partnership agreements, are splinters (in SAYC and almost all versions of 2/1) showing support for partner's suit and at most one of the suit into which you are jumping.

There are no splinters in SAYC. One can, of course, modify SAYC and add splinters (or other stuff)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Bbradley62, on 2011-July-14, 16:00, said:

No! Double jumps, unless you have other partnership agreements, are Splinters (in SAYC and almost all versions of 2/1) showing support for partner's suit and at most one of the suit into which you are jumping.

The B & I Police are going to get you for mentioning the " S " word in this forum.

[Nu2Br]

Thanks to all for the advice.
No"splinters" for me -- whatever they are!

Seems to me there are no simple answers in bridge.

[Bbradley62]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-July-14, 17:23, said:

The B & I Police are going to get you for mentioning the " S " word in this forum.

But, they're included in BBO's step-by-step SAYC convention card. Sorry.

[semeai]

Nu2Br, on 2011-July-14, 17:42, said:

Thanks to all for the advice.
No"splinters" for me -- whatever they are!

Seems to me there are no simple answers in bridge.

Yes, and we left out entirely things like the matter of how your partner is to bid after you bid one of these (your guesses are likely not too bad though).

You should feel no rush to add conventions, especially inessential ones. I'd consider this one inessential.

Bbradley62, on 2011-July-14, 18:13, said:

But, they're included in BBO's step-by-step SAYC convention card. Sorry.

I think the confusion is that an Intermediate player may well play SAYC, but a Beginner likely plays something more like this summary (from Karen Walker's site).

[Mbodell]

It is also not that common, but you can bid again after you make your weak jump response. You just don't have to, and usually will not.


After a sequence like:

1♦ - 2♠ (weak jump)
3♣

you aren't required to pass, you can correct 3♣ to 3♦ as partner likely has 10+ cards in the minors and few to none in your suit. But this will be a quite rare auction as usually your weak jump will end the auction, bring the opponents in, or end up with your partner raising your suit or placing the contract somewhere (like 3nt).

[jillybean]

Nu2Br, on 2011-July-14, 17:42, said:

Thanks to all for the advice.
No"splinters" for me -- whatever they are!

Seems to me there are no simple answers in bridge.

Hi Nu2Br, I don't play weak jumps and don't miss them.
I do however play splinters and would not want to play without them.
IMO, splinters are simple, standard, much more useful and less likely to
be misunderstood than a weak jump.

[Gerben42]

Let me give you a quick overview of weak jump responses.

1suit - 2higher suit (simple jump on the 2-level like 1♦ - 2♠) then shows about 5 to 8 HCP and a 6-card suit. This has consequences:

1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♠ is what? Well, can't be 5 to 8! Nope, it is 9 to 11 (invitational). This means that
1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♠ is FORCING TO GAME.

But this only counts for unbalanced rebids.
1♦ - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♠ is still weak with exactly 5♠.

1suit - 3lower suit (simple jump on the 3-level like 1♠ - 3♦) again shows about 5 to 8 HCP, but should be a 7-card suit (similar to preempt on the 3-level). If you then bid

1♠ - 1NT - 2♦ - 3♣, this shows 9 - 10 and is mildly invitational (not enough for 2♣ response to 1♠.

DISCLAIMER: This is not the only way to play it, but I think the most common and the most useful way.

[1eyedjack]

I have never really got enthusiastic about weak jump shifts.
Opposite an unlimited opening structure such as SAYC, 2/1, Acol or whatever, it needs to be reasonably narrowly limted in strength.
Furthermore, unless you also limit the distribution you could end up in an inferior trump strain.
Say you had 6 Spades and 4 Hearts and partner opens 1D. If you bid 2S because you are in-range in terms of high cards, you risk playing in a 6-1 fit when you might have a 4-4 Heart fit. On grounds of frequency it may of course be an acceptable risk for the benefits of preemption. But is preemption really so great a priority when partner has opened?
As Gerben42 points out, preemption is not the only benefit, as you may be able to make better use of responder's rebidding his suit when he did not start with a WJS.
Or say you had 4 card support for opener's minor. Again if you wjs you risk a misfit when you have a strong fit for opener's suit.
If you try to cater for that, by restricting the distributional shapes on which you can WJS, then you end up making a sinple change of suit on those hands which do not qualify in shape for the WJS (but otherwise qualify in strength), and once you start doing that, you lose the benefit of denying the high card strength of a WJS when you make a simple change of suit.
If you are playing a strong club system, so that opening bids are limited, then I can see how a WJS response structure might be more effective (and possibly wider ranging).

Strong jump shifts are a powerful tool if used properly (which is rare among B/I players I think). They have a quite low frequency (again if used properly), but then again the potential swings at stake when they arise are quite high.

Personally I quite like mini-splinter jump shifts, but that is possibly not a topic for this forum.

[P_Marlowe]

Nu2Br, on 2011-July-14, 17:42, said:

Thanks to all for the advice.
No"splinters" for me -- whatever they are!

Seems to me there are no simple answers in bridge.

#1 If the choice is between learning "Weak Jump Responses" or "Splinter Bids", go for "Splinter Bids".
#2 If you are a B/I try to avoid jumping in a new suit as response to a 1 level opening bid, make the
single jump shift response undefined.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

Gerben42, on 2011-July-15, 10:40, said:

DISCLAIMER: This is not the only way to play it, but I think the most common and the most useful way.

Certainly not what people in the US play when they say weak jump shifts.