[han]

7NT, all vulnerable

AKx
Qxx
K10xx
AKx

Q9xx
AKJ98
Ax
xx

South opened 1H, north relayed and south showed a 4-5-2-2 with extra values and 3 keycards in hearts. North bid 7NT, south declaring.

West leads the club 10, which denies the jack. Say you win, play 4 rounds of hearts pitching a diamond and 3 rounds of spades.

East started with J10xx of spades and 2 small hearts. On the third round of hearts east pitches a club, and on the fourth round a diamond.

West started with 2 small spades and 3 small hearts. West pitches 2 small clubs.

How would you continue? If you play a fifth round of hearts, what do you pitch from dummy if west pitches a diamond?

[shyams]

IMO, playing a fifth round of ♥ makes sense now.

Our only hope would be if West began with ♠xx ♥xxx ♦QJx ♣QJTxx and masterminded his opening lead. East's discard of one♣ and one ♦ would then make sense.

[gnasher]

I'd play for a compound squeeze, partly because I've never done one of those in real life. I think their shapes were 2344 and 4234, and they're now down to 0041 and 1022. Hence I cash the top diamonds followed by the last heart.

[Edited to correct no of cards in East - thanks matmat]

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-July-05, 06:11

[nigel_k]

If the lead is honest then West has something like 109xx in clubs and East is now in sole control of the suit so I have a straightforward black suit squeeze. But this requires that West has released his club guard in order to hold on to an idle fourth diamond. Since West knows declarer's shape, this is either very poor defence or an extremely clever double cross.

The alternative is that West started with QJTxx in clubs. East might not then have realized that keeping a club could be important. This seems a more likely scenario to me. So I would play for a double squeeze, i.e. if West discards a diamond on the last heart I discard a club and hope East is squeezed when I cash the second club.

[matmat]

gnasher, on 2011-July-05, 05:06, said:

I'd play for a compound squeeze, partly because I've never done one of those in real life. I think their shapes were 2344 and 4234, and they're now down to 0041 and 1023. Hence I cash the top diamonds followed by the last heart.

I think you mean 0041 and 1022? I like this line, doesn't it still operate if the initial layout was 2353 -- 4225 (not that east should pitch that way...)?

This post has been edited by matmat: 2011-July-05, 05:35

[gnasher]

nigel_k, on 2011-July-05, 05:21, said:

If the lead is honest then West has something like 109xx in clubs and East is now in sole control of the suit so I have a straightforward black suit squeeze. But this requires that West has released his club guard in order to hold on to an idle fourth diamond. Since West knows declarer's shape, this is either very poor defence or an extremely clever double cross.

When West discarded on the third heart, he didn't know if we had ♠Q or ♦Q. Holding ♦Jxxx, it would be natural to keep all of them, and it would also be natural to keep two spades so as to avoid exposing East's possible Jxxx.

On the fourth round of spades, West knows that a compound squeeze (if required) has already occurred, and the contract is now cold if declarer plays for the correct squeeze. The defence's objective is now to cause declarer to misguess the defensive shapes, so I don't think that any discard could be called "very poor defence".

[shyams]

gnasher, on 2011-July-05, 06:09, said:

When West discarded on the third heart, he didn't know if we had ♠Q or ♦Q. Holding ♦Jxxx, it would be natural to keep all of them, and it would also be natural to keep two spades so as to avoid exposing East's possible Jxxx.

On the fourth round of spades, West knows that a compound squeeze (if required) has already occurred, and the contract is now cold if declarer plays for the correct squeeze. The defence's objective is now to cause declarer to misguess the defensive shapes, so I don't think that any discard could be called "very poor defence".

East had doubleton in hearts, discarded first and chose a club.

[dake50]

"West leads the club 10, which denies the jack."
Why do opponents need this convention to be ON when
all the count of every suit has been relayed?
Using "they know all the inferences in this hand"
their lead may be any deception, any random.
And verses this grand that is their best strategy.
You may pick any flotsam to cling to in trying to infer this hand,
but don't think it's revealed.

[Flameous]

Gnasher, in your ending it has just turned into simple squeeze in the black suits. (Due to opponent's discarding)
West should have kept Hxx/xx minors for this to turn into a real compound. (First triple squeeze to enable a double squeeze)
Your line of play is of course right for either of those situations.

If opps had xx xxx Hxx xxxxx opposite Jxxx xx Hxxx xxx, ie. they are now down to - - Hxx xx opposite J - Hxx x, I have to play heart now throwing a club if west pitches diamond. Then finish with simple squeeze in pointed suits against east.

I think I'll go with Gnasher's line of play because it seems to cater to some "misdefenses". (Hard to misdefend a cold contract but meaning that their bad discards enabled easier squeezes)

Also apparently east didn't discard club honor? So he didn't hold QJx originally as the lead suggests if from five card suit. I'm more likely to believe that the lead is from 4 card suit than deceptive lead from QJTxx. (Not because I trust their carding against slam, but that holding is just much more rare)

[gnasher]

shyams, on 2011-July-05, 06:35, said:

East had doubleton in hearts, discarded first and chose a club.

Sorry, I don't understand your point. If the shapes were 2344 and 4234, then the discards went:
- Third round of hearts: East painlessly discards a club
- Fourth round of hearts: West painlessly discards a club; East is squeezed and chooses to throw his diamond guard
- Third round of spades: West knows that the contract is now cold if declarer plays the right squeeze, and chooses to throw a club.

This is starting to sound as though I'm convinced that this line is right. I'm not - we could play for the original shapes to be 2335 and 4243, by cashing the ♣A, ♦A and the last heart. (Edit: this is Flameous's alternative line, except that I've cashed ♣A to simplify the ending.)

It would help to know whether either defender stopped to think at any point, and if so when.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-July-05, 08:29

[han]

The defenders thought at every tricks, but note that they knew my exact shape and had it relatively easy. I didn't see either of them squirming if that's what you mean, but perhaps I was too busy working out how to play this.

[phil_20686]

han, on 2011-July-05, 03:56, said:

7NT, all vulnerable

AKx
Qxx
K10xx
AKx

Q9xx
AKJ98
Ax
xx

South opened 1H, north relayed and south showed a 4-5-2-2 with extra values and 3 keycards in hearts. North bid 7NT, south declaring.

West leads the club 10, which denies the jack. Say you win, play 4 rounds of hearts pitching a diamond and 3 rounds of spades.

East started with J10xx of spades and 2 small hearts. On the third round of hearts east pitches a club, and on the fourth round a diamond.

West started with 2 small spades and 3 small hearts. West pitches 2 small clubs.

How would you continue? If you play a fifth round of hearts, what do you pitch from dummy if west pitches a diamond?

Is it not an error to cash the Q of spades before the last heart? If you are planning to cash the q of spades then it must be right to cash the fifth heart before the spade queen, now you can discard an idle spade from dummy, but the defender with 4 spades has to commmit. This should make it much easier to read if the spades are 2-4 as in the actual hand.

Now when you play the Q of spades and west shows out, you know you have forced east to give up one of the guards, and that west is squeezed on this trick in the minors. Obviously if west follows I should assume that he has four and discard accordingly. I really think this would make reading the position a lot easier.

[JLOGIC]

I def play LHO for 2344, I don't think it's close

[nigel_k]

I know you guys play against much better opponents than I do, but I really think there are very few bridge players who would hold on to a fourth diamond in this situation. Even if West's diamonds are Jxxx, he can count us for 13 tricks on top if we have AQ. I agree with gnasher that West should know the situation but these things are much harder from the defender's point of view. Placing partner in sole charge of the club suit in order to keep a completely useless small diamond just goes so contrary to bridge instincts that I would rather play West not to have done that.

[han]

West had xx xxx Jxx Q109xx, east had J10xx 10x Q9xx Jxx.

I went down but in my own defense, I'm an idiot.

[benlessard]

Im not 100% sure about this but i think the key to defense in compound (or pentagonal 2+2+1 menaces i guess) squeeze is to understand that contract is always cold if declarer read the position correctly because another squeeze appear The 2nd squeeze is very often (always ?) against the opponent who control the suit that is garded only by 1 opponents. So one possible top notch west defense is to keep 5 clubs as long as possible and discard a club on the compound squeeze card hoping dummy discard a D. If east is on the same wavelenght he will discard a club early so that declarer try to squeeze in C+S rather than D+S.

[benlessard]

phil_20686, on 2011-July-06, 03:25, said:

Is it not an error to cash the Q of spades before the last heart? If you are planning to cash the q of spades then it must be right to cash the fifth heart before the spade queen, now you can discard an idle spade from dummy, but the defender with 4 spades has to commmit. This should make it much easier to read if the spades are 2-4 as in the actual hand.

Now when you play the Q of spades and west shows out, you know you have forced east to give up one of the guards, and that west is squeezed on this trick in the minors. Obviously if west follows I should assume that he has four and discard accordingly. I really think this would make reading the position a lot easier.

Your are lacking an entry to your hand. If you used the A of D as an entry to cash the Q of S some squeezes against East are no longer available.

[phil_20686]

benlessard, on 2011-July-07, 21:42, said:

Your are lacking an entry to your hand. If you used the A of D as an entry to cash the Q of S some squeezes against East are no longer available.

I have a small spade entry. I am talking about reducing the position to


-
-
Ktx
AKx

Qx
-
Ax
xx

With the lead in the south hand. This is identical to the position given by OP except that I have a spade to cash rather than a heart. The advantage is that we have seen an extra discard from the player with 4 spades, which makes the position much easier to read. Suppose the complete layout includes 2-4 spades. Now when I play the Q of spades and lho shows out, I am virtually a lock to read the position correctly, as I know all of rho's discards before lho is squeezed. If I had played the Q of spades and kept x x Ax xx as suggested in the OP, then I have to choose dummies discard before rho is squeezed, which produces more ambiguity.

While in theory the contract is always cold, altering the timing in this way will definitely improve your odds of success I think.

[benlessard]

indeed look like a clear improvement