[jillybean]

---

[BunnyGo]

1N-2C
2D-3H(smolen)
3N-4N
6N

or

1N-2C
2D-3H(smolen)
3N-4N
6C (choice of slam)-Pass

[kenrexford]

1NT start.

Responder hopes for a major fit. So, he starts out with 2♣ Stayman, expecting to make a 4♣ Splinter if Opener cooperates. No luck, so...

Opener bids 2♦. Responder now shows the fifth spade and GF values (3♠, or 3♥ if playing Smolen), expecting Opener to not simply blast 4♠ if he has a fit, instead going slow in case. Ideally, a Smolen auction (3♥) might get a simple 3♠ acceptance, enabling perhaps 3NT as a general slam move to allow 4♣/4♦/4♥ as shortness slam tries (opting 4♣, of course). Again, no luck, so...

Opener bids 3NT, usually showing 2♠/3♥ and 8+ in minors. Responder now, ideally, has a method to show a club fragment (3-4 cards in clubs, isolating the stiff/void in diamonds). This gets a tad tricky if you try to stack too much into this sequence and do not discuss this sequence well enough to enable all of this stacking. Using a fairly straight-forward approach (enabled by spades being isolated as longer), 4♣ or 4♦ each show 3-4 cards in the indicated suit. Hence, Responder tries 4♣. No reason to move too fast yet. Description is good.

This hits pay dirt (finally). Opener might have been 5♦/3♣ (a bad day), in which case he should be allowed to sign off at 4NT (he might even be able to suggest a 4-3 or the 5-2 major suit as an alternative strain if diamonds are wide open). With 4-4, he might get nervous. But, with 3♦/5♣, Opener KNOWS of the club fit.

Opener now could simply trust and blast a practical 6♣, which is probably the best contract (especially at IMP scoring). With some methods, however, better things can happen. In an auction where Responder has just isolated shortness in the other minor, using the other minor as RKCB makes a lot of sense. Here, this is very convenient -- Opener can bid 4♦ as RKCB, agrfeeing clubs.

Using that approach, Responder shows three keys (4♥). Responder can then perhaps bid 5♦ for Kings, Responder bidding 5♥ for the heart King. Opener might even smell a grand at this point, bidding 5♠ to push back. If Responder accepts and bids 7♣, we seem to need the spade Jack dropping in three rounds (which yields 13 quick and easy), or the spade Jack dropping in four rounds (ruffed out) for the 12th trick and some sexy line to maximize the value of the secondary red menaces/finesse options.

[Hanoi5]

1N-2♣
2♦-3♥
3N-6N

After such start it is hard to find the club grand-slam.

[Cyberyeti]

I actually play a weak no trump, so our auction would be 1♣-1♠-1N-2♣(artificial)-3♣(max 5 clubs)-4♦(KC)-5♣-5♥-5♠-7♣, but using our 1N methods, we'd bid:

1N-2♥-2♠-3♥-3N-4♣(specifically 5413 and big, would have bid 3♣ rather than 3♥ with 5404)-4♦(KC)-4♥(0/3)-4N(K♠)-5♥-6♣-?

Partner is known to be 2335 if not offshape, you can pretty much write in Kx, xxx, Axx, KQxxx with another 3-5 points to come, J♠ and J♣ are huge here, partner won't have Q♥ or K♦ here so it's 3-5 points from J♠, J♥, QJ♦, J♣. I think I'd bid 7, but it's close.

Starting with Stayman makes these hands very awkward. It's easier if you play a method where you can show a 3 suiter with short diamonds immediately or bid as we do starting with the transfer.

[daveharty]

BunnyGo, on 2011-July-03, 09:48, said:

...4N...

or

...4N...

Hmm? Not sure I understand just inviting with the south hand. Agree with Hanoi5's auction.

[Mbodell]

Hanoi5, on 2011-July-03, 10:39, said:

1N-2♣
2♦-3♥
3N-6N

After such start it is hard to find the club grand-slam.

Agree with this auction. S is going to force to slam, and smolen covers the likely strain. 6nt should be fine, I'd predict in a field of B/I 6nt N easily gets more than half the matchpoints.

[chasetb]

For the B-I forum, the auction by Hanoi5 is the one I would expect (or at least hope, since with the 10s in the long suits that hand is worth 19 in my estimation). In order to find the club grand slam, you need a few partnership agreements, as kenrexford showed.

[Cyberyeti]

kenrexford, on 2011-July-03, 10:00, said:

Using that approach, Responder shows three keys (4♥). Responder can then perhaps bid 5♦ for Kings, Responder bidding 5♥ for the heart King. Opener might even smell a grand at this point, bidding 5♠ to push back. If Responder accepts and bids 7♣, we seem to need the spade Jack dropping in three rounds (which yields 13 quick and easy), or the spade Jack dropping in four rounds (ruffed out) for the 12th trick and some sexy line to maximize the value of the secondary red menaces/finesse options.

Requires nothing sexy, ♦6-3 or better, ♠4-2 or better, ♣4-1 or better it's laydown. Say a trump lead, win the A, ♦ to A, ♦ ruff, ♠to K, ♦ ruff, A♠, ♠ ruff (high because it's all you've got), draw trumps and claim.

[han]

I'd bid

1NT - 2C
2D - 3H
3NT - 4C

I don't think that this should promise 5-4-0-4.

[VM1973]

han, on 2011-July-05, 04:01, said:

I'd bid

1NT - 2C
2D - 3H
3NT - 4C

I don't think that this should promise 5-4-0-4.

Some people might think 4♣ is ace asking.

I like Hanoi's auction. I tried to uprave it but it said I've reached my maximum quota of positive votes for today... but I haven't made any yet. The only way I see of to arrive in 7♣ would be:

1NT-2C
2D-3S (or 3H Smolen)
3NT-5NT
6C-7C

Of course 5NT might land you in 7NT which isn't a terrible contract, although 7♣ is better. You probably take 5♠, 5♣, 2♥ and 1♦ assuming the J♠ falls or they go 3-3. Or you might do well with the opening lead... maybe 9♦ (top of nothing) to the queen and you have 12 tricks off the top. You could easily play AK♥, run the clubs, and cash the A♦ for an automatic squeeze in the major suits and you don't lose the possibility of 3-3♠ or the J falling.

[wank]

VM1973, on 2011-July-05, 11:22, said:

Some people might think 4♣ is ace asking.

lucky they have access to the forum then to have such ideas purged

[ArtK78]

kenrexford, on 2011-July-03, 10:00, said:

Opener now could simply trust and blast a practical 6♣, which is probably the best contract (especially at IMP scoring).

Ken, I assume you were having a bad day when you typed this.

6NT from the North hand is 100% - 3 spades, 3 hearts (conceding one), 1 diamond and 5 clubs. So, since 6NT outscores 6♣, and since 6♣ is not 100% cold (the defense could cross ruff if each defender has a club and an offsuit void), I would rate it as a better contract than 6♣.

7♣ is a very good contract, and 7NT has plenty of play. I would like to be able to reach 7♣ on this hand, but, after the normal strong 1NT opening, someone is going to have to take a very rosy view of things to get there.

I strongly suspect that most partnerships would reach 6NT without any real effort.

[Flameous]

I have some trouble here understanding these 4m as fragment bids. What do you bid with 64 majors? I would take the 4m as shortness (doesn't matter which way they are) but I would take it as slam invite in the longer major. But maybe it could work to assume that the shortness can be bid with a hand like this and other minor can still be a playable strain, ie. 3NT - 4♦ - 4♠ - 5♣ - 6♣ - 6♥ - 7♣ might be a possible sequence.

I don't know, do you handle your 64s other way?

[vuroth]

I would have chosen 4NT. Should we blast to 6 with 32 HCP and 3 aces covered?

[aguahombre]

BunnyGo, on 2011-July-03, 09:48, said:

1N-2C
2D-3H(smolen)
3N-4N
6N

or

1N-2C
2D-3H(smolen)
3N-4N
6C (choice of slam)-Pass

The first one feels better, because of the positional diamond situation and the fact that responder bid clubs first.

[kenrexford]

ArtK78, on 2011-July-05, 12:20, said:

Ken, I assume you were having a bad day when you typed this.

6NT from the North hand is 100% - 3 spades, 3 hearts (conceding one), 1 diamond and 5 clubs. So, since 6NT outscores 6♣, and since 6♣ is not 100% cold (the defense could cross ruff if each defender has a club and an offsuit void), I would rate it as a better contract than 6♣.

7♣ is a very good contract, and 7NT has plenty of play. I would like to be able to reach 7♣ on this hand, but, after the normal strong 1NT opening, someone is going to have to take a very rosy view of things to get there.

I strongly suspect that most partnerships would reach 6NT without any real effort.

Obviously, blasting 6♣ is rather dubious, but certainly better than missing slam with these cards. Also, blasting 6♣ is clearly not my style.

That said, the assessment of a "best practical call" is not helpful after Dummy hits, because at bridge you generally cannot seem Dummy while you are bidding. Thus, the question is not whether on these hands 6NT makes but rather whether 6♣ is a reasonable contract with this Declarer's hand opposite all possible Responder hands consistent with this sequence.

To some degree, though, by "blast 6♣" comment was meant to be baby steps, followed by the real auction that should follow (IMO).

[kenrexford]

Flameous, on 2011-July-05, 12:34, said:

I have some trouble here understanding these 4m as fragment bids. What do you bid with 64 majors? I would take the 4m as shortness (doesn't matter which way they are) but I would take it as slam invite in the longer major. But maybe it could work to assume that the shortness can be bid with a hand like this and other minor can still be a playable strain, ie. 3NT - 4♦ - 4♠ - 5♣ - 6♣ - 6♥ - 7♣ might be a possible sequence.

I don't know, do you handle your 64s other way?

Since you asked...

If the long major is spades, the relevant auction up to this point will have started with Stayman, followed by Smolen, Opener bidding 3NT. Responder, with 6♠/4♥ and no slam interest would have instead bid Delayed Texas (1NT-2♣-2♦-4♥). So, a transfer at this point shows at least mild slam interest (Opener allowed to answer if accepting).

Thus, 4♣ as clubs and 4♦ as diamonds are available as natural calls.

However, this is perhaps not ideal. Ideal might be actually for Responder, with slam interest and 6-4, to be able to show his shortness. So, in one partnership, we decided to have 4♣ and 4♦ be shortness calls, 6-4. With the 5-4 hands and a club or diamond fragment (or better), we would flag the minor (4♥ for 5-4-1-3/5-4-0-4 and 4♠ for 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-4-0).

This structure (re-transfer by bidding the shortness) works equally well when hearts is the long suit, incidentally, which creates consistency and ease of memory. Sure, an alternative structure might make sense, but when parallel structure works equally well whichever major is longer, some lack of ideal is acceptable.

So, in sum:

4♣ = re-transfer with 6-4, slam interest, short club
4♦ = re-transfer with 6-4, slam interest, short diamond
4♥ = 5-4 (or 4-5) only, club frag or 4
4♠ = 5-4 (or 4-5) only, diamond frag or 4
4NT = 4522/5422 (as Smolen indicated)

After 4M, 4NT declines, but any else agrees and is RKCB answers. Hence, as an example, after 4♥ in this sequence (club frag or better), 4NT would be to play, all others answers to RKCB. Might you end up in a sick 4NT? Sure.

You could restructure this to have all-suit transfers (which actually works OK). 4♣ would then be a "transfer" to diamonds, showing the diamond frag hands. If diamonds are introduced, an escape to a major is possible. Aaccepting the transfer (bidding 4♦) initiates RKCB.

In the all-suit T's, 4♦ transfers to the major and shows diamond shortness; 4♥ transfers to spades (when that is longest) and shows club shortness. 4♠ always shows the club frag, which sucks but is not that horrible.

When hearts are trumps, 4♥ shows club shortness and slam interest only. With better values, Responder sucks it up and asks for Aces with 5♣ super-Gerber.

In sum:

4♣ = diamond frag
4♦ = re-transfer with short diamond and 6-4
4♥ = re-transfer (if spades) or mild slam interest (if hearts) with short club and 6-4
4♠ = club frag

[Free]

Without special agreements (except Smolen) I'd probably bid:
1NT-2♣
2♦-3♥
3NT-6NT

[VM1973]

wank, on 2011-July-05, 12:02, said:

lucky they have access to the forum then to have such ideas purged

6NT is a good contract. I don't see the point of introducing a 3-card suit at the four level with a bid that might be misunderstood on the off chance that you're cold for 7... but you can play as you please.