[BWS2001fan]

Following bidding sequence:

W___N____E____S
-___1♥___1♠___3♦

Playing BWS2001defaults: 3♦, a jump shift, is pre-emptive.

What would be 4♦ ?
Staying in the same line of thinking, one could propose 4♦ as equally pre-emptive.
But almost equally defendable: as the double shift is not explicetedly defined, only the single jump is, 4♦ should be, according to the BWS defaults settings, natural: a strong single suiter.

Any opinions ?

Besides: do you really think - taking into account the other BWS-agreements after an overcall of our 1♥ or 1♠ opening - that playing that jump shift as pre-emptive is the best use of that bid ?

This is one of the sequences where I have difficulties following the BWS standard. I would prefer to play 4♦ as a good ♠ raise with a ♦suit. Im not so sure about 3♦.
All opinions welcome.

Any ideas about the use of jump shift responses, after an intervention of our 1 of a minor ?

[655321]

Lurpoa - (or PalingL, or GulLur, or TongLu, or Ploate), it seems a bit surprising to me that you expect people to answer your posts.

[Hanoi5]

655321, on 2011-June-23, 05:16, said:

Lurpoa - (or PalingL, or GulLur, or TongLu, or Ploate), it seems a bit surprising to me that you expect people to answer your posts.

Was it the font? Or the suit symbols?

[655321]

Well actually it has been suggested to me that this may not be the real Lurpoa after all

[Free]

655321, on 2011-June-23, 05:16, said:

Lurpoa - (or PalingL, or GulLur, or TongLu, or Ploate), it seems a bit surprising to me that you expect people to answer your posts.

655321, on 2011-June-23, 05:48, said:

Well actually it has been suggested to me that this may not be the real Lurpoa after all

I had the same initial thought, but it was still a long shot. Some well deserved downvotes for you.
Lurpoa would never use another profile, she said she's not here to get a good reputation and her actions confirm this.

Back to topic, I'm no BWS expert or anything, the system is already 10 years old so it might need an update. To me it seems logical to use 4♦ as a fit jump, a splinter, or as a preempt (pick one). But not as a strong single suiter (which can bid 2♦ right?).

[Slave2BWS]

LOL

[semeai]

Come now, people. This is a legitimate question, whoever is asking it. (Though, admittedly, I am not aware of the relevant disputes.) Also, BWS 2001 is getting a bit out-of-date, but it is still a fairly comprehensive list of standard treatments. Does anyone know when it will next be updated?

It seems 4♦ is natural and non-forcing by default:

The only definition relevant is

BWS 2001 said:

In responding to a major-suit opening over an overcall: (e) [default] a jump-shift is preemptive. [leaf] fit-showing.

which doesn't cover double jumps.

The relevant defaults are:

non-forcing:

BWS 2001 said:

Forcing vs. nonforcing: When a call could logically be interpreted as either forcing or nonforcing and there is no explicit agreement: In general: [default] In a competitive situation, treat as nonforcing; in a noncompetitive situation, treat as forcing or nonforcing by which seems more sensible to the observer [leaf] forcing rather than nonforcing.

natural:

BWS 2001 said:

Suit jumps: [default] If an undiscussed competitive suit jump might logically be interpreted in more than one way, it is natural [leaf] a fit-jump.

BWS 2001 said:

Interpretation priorities: When a call is subject to different possible interpretations and there is no explicit system agreement, it should be considered: (a) natural rather than artificial

[TWO4BRIDGE]

2D = natural ( I suggest forcing )
3D-jump ( fit-showing-jump in competition or by a passed hand )
4D-double jump = splinter

[Phil]

655321, on 2011-June-23, 05:48, said:

Well actually it has been suggested to me that this may not be the real Lurpoa after all

Still feel that way after the subsequent posts?

I think Don's structure would be expert mainstream, but there are some R/S true believers that would play 4♦ also as fitted.

[nigel_k]

If playing preemptive jumps in competition, I think four of a minor should probably be an exception regardless of whether it is a single or double jump. But I wouldn't make a general exception for all double jumps, e.g. three of a major or five of a minor.

[LOL Lurpoa]

I like how "it*" downvotes all the posts in this thread. Pretty impressive IMO.

* I use the term "it" because it seems unclear whether Lurpoa is a he or a she.

[han]

I think that whenever we have a bid hearts and they have bid spades, a jump to 4m is best played as fitted.

[MrAce]

655321, on 2011-June-23, 05:48, said:

Well actually it has been suggested to me that this may not be the real Lurpoa after all

http://www.bridgebas...art-bid-part-2/ Check the upvoters

[Free]

Even LOL Lurpoa has a negative reputation

[hotShot]

edit

[Lurpoa]

semeai, on 2011-June-23, 08:38, said:

Come now, people. This is a legitimate question, whoever is asking it. (Though, admittedly, I am not aware of the relevant disputes.) Also, BWS 2001 is getting a bit out-of-date, but it is still a fairly comprehensive list of standard treatments. Does anyone know when it will next be updated?

It seems 4♦ is natural and non-forcing by default:

The only definition relevant is

which doesn't cover double jumps.

The relevant defaults are:

non-forcing:


natural:

You made a very good analysis !

[Lurpoa]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-June-23, 13:01, said:

2D = natural ( I suggest forcing )
3D-jump ( fit-showing-jump in competition or by a passed hand )
4D-double jump = splinter

Very Good suggestions I think.

But they have nothing to do with the BWS Standard, but may be taken into account for a futur update of the Standard.

I would be nice to have a short justification for each of those bids.

Thank you for your contribution.

[Lurpoa]

Free, on 2011-June-23, 06:01, said:

I had the same initial thought, but it was still a long shot. Some well deserved downvotes for you.
Lurpoa would never use another profile, she said she's not here to get a good reputation and her actions confirm this.

Back to topic, I'm no BWS expert or anything, the system is already 10 years old so it might need an update. To me it seems logical to use 4♦ as a fit jump, a splinter, or as a preempt (pick one). But not as a strong single suiter (which can bid 2♦ right?).

Yes !
You offered a 3rd possible BWS interpretation of that bid ! The Splinter Raise !

And indeed it is what prescribed in the standard after a 1 of a minor opening, and an overcall: the double shift is a Splinter Raise. I do not see any reason why it should be anything else here.
Ibelieve that in the light of possible further competition, thissplinter should show extra values, and not be solely based on thedistributional values of the shortness.

[Lurpoa]

han, on 2011-June-23, 15:02, said:

I think that whenever we have a bid hearts and they have bid spades, a jump to 4m is best played as fitted.

What you think is not so important.
What is important is the justification for such a bid.

Robson Segal have written a whole book to justify this fit raise, which is now considered by many experts as a very good treatment.