[Yzerman]

In the beginner/intermediate section this topic is discussed.  I thought it would be beneficial to divulge into the theory of fsf and how different systems and conventions effect fsf, there are some 'neat' things to debate.

1) What is fourth suit forcing and why is it important?

2) What is the difference between fsf using strong club and 2/1 based system where 1d/1h/1s are limited?

3) What if you play a Walsh style response to 1c?

4) What if you 1c-1h-1s as an unbalanced hand?

5) Fourth suit forcing in KS type systems?

***************************************
1) You might think this is dumb however I have ran across a many "experts" that do not entirely understand fsf (if not understand at all).  Fsf can be defined as a tool to (a) differentiate forcing/invitational auctions, ( probe for "direction" of hand, and © determine auction captaincy in slam auctions.

2) I have had some nightmarish auctions in the past if this is not specifically discussed.  When playing strong club now, I assume under all circumstances that fsf is game force.

3) This is the point that I am willing to discuss and debate until the cows come home.  I have a lot of experience playing and experimenting with Walsh style auctions.  Some of the auctions vastly differ from standard"ish" auction.  The best example is 1c-1d-1h-1s should be fsf playing walsh and creates a force to => 2nt.  Hence 1c-1d-1h-2s is game forcing and "pictureesque".

4) Since responder has the luxury of knowing an extra piece of information regarding openers hand, how does this effect fsf auctions?

5) KS generally apply reverse principles.  If opener can retreat to responders suit and not be forced to bid at new level, than auction is invitational, other game force.

***************************************

Given the above, I have a hand from the other day in which we (new partnership, partner is EXCELLENT player) had a fourth suit forcing disaster.  After the hand was over, I naturally felt as though the blame should be assigned on myself but I would like some input.

Hand-

AQxx
A109x
10xxx
x

Auction (partner open/unopposed and we have no agreements on reverse auction - 1st time we play) -

1c-1h-2d-2s(me)-3h-3n-4c-4d-5n-6d-6h

At the crucial point of the auction (after 2d reverse) I had to make a decision between 2s (fsf) and 3d (disclose fit).  In the post mortem I wish I would have judged to bid 3d.  Partner thought I promise 5 hearts on this auction however I would agree except that after 3H I bid 3N hence if it was my intention to play hearts why would I bid 3N?  Few questions;

a) What would you think meaning of 2S then 3N is on this auction(with no agreements)?

Having bid 3N, what is 4D after partner bids 4C?

* Obviously with reverse agreements this is not a problem, but was wondering what the other players would do with my hand without agreements playing with a new partner that is a REAL expert.*

[inquiry]

First.... You raise excellent points. Playing a strong club system, fsf should be game force, because opener is so limited, nothing else makes sense. Second, playing WALSH style only 1C-1D-1H-1S should be fsf.

Your disaster auction

AQxx
A109x
10xxx
x

1c-1h-2d-2s(me)-3h-3n-4c-4d-5n-6d-6h

a) What would you think meaning of 2S then 3N is on this auction(with no agreements)?

2S = Game force, does not show a real suit. If you bid 2S with this hand, you must not rebid 3NT over 3H. Support partner with support. Over 3H, sadly, you have to rebid 4D. Do you play Wold or Wolff over reverses?  Playing these, you simple bid a game forcing 3D, then try to get back into 3NT... since partner had HEARTS, think 1C-1H-2D-3D-3H-3N......

Having bid 3N, what is 4D after partner bids 4C?

Depends upon your understanding of 4C. If you showed 5H with 2S, then it is a control for a heart fit. On your auction, over 3H you have a real problem. Your partner is 1-3-4-5 or 0-3-4-6. If you bid 3NT, with a void or stiff SPADE do you really think he going to stick to 3NT? Over 4C, you might as well close your eyes and bid 5/6D.

[Yzerman]

Thanks for reply on the disaster auction.  Here is my take on the auction.

a) Having bid 2S THEN 3N this I do not have 5 hearts because with 8 card heart fit playing 3N is NUTS.

Having bid 3N in this auction when partner has single or void spade, I must have wasted S values (S suit => 2 stops).

c) Having bid 2S then retreat to 3N (with 2 spades stope), I must have some undisclosed feature in hand otherwise I would make noise in hearts, raise m suit OR NOT bid and just bid 3N direct.

d) Having said all that, after 4C (which is last train "ish") whatever I bid becomes my undisclosed feature hence this is our authentic fit, this is NOT cue bid w/heart suit as trump.

* With that explanation, I think my correct bid is 5D after 4C.  I will let partner work out my bidding (wasted S values, 4 hearts (not good) and bad trumps (diamonds).

 

[inquiry]

Quote

Thanks for reply on the disaster auction.  Here is my take on the auction.

a) Having bid 2S THEN 3N this I do not have 5 hearts because with 8 card heart fit playing 3N is NUTS.

Having bid 3N in this auction when partner has single or void spade, I must have wasted S values (S suit => 2 stops).

c) Having bid 2S then retreat to 3N (with 2 spades stope), I must have some undisclosed feature in hand otherwise I would make noise in hearts, raise m suit OR NOT bid and just bid 3N direct.

d) Having said all that, after 4C (which is last train "ish") whatever I bid becomes my undisclosed feature hence this is our authentic fit, this is NOT cue bid w/heart suit as trump.

* With that explanation, I think my correct bid is 5D after 4C.  I will let partner work out my bidding (wasted S values, 4 hearts (not good) and bad trumps (diamonds).

 

You never said. Is wold or Wolff an option on your auction? Anyway.

A) I agree that you do not have 5H on this hand, that is why I said "IF YOU SHOWED" out of deference to your partner's understanding. Because what 4D bid shows depends on how HE not you took 2S...  :'(

Yes you show two good spade stoppers

C) Well, 3NT just has to be wrong, because you may miss easy 6D. Somewhere in here, I think you have to support DIAMONDS, but you could survive 3NT... .because.....

D) over 4C.... 5D surely comes describes this hand to a tee..... what else can it be?

[Yzerman]

How about  raising of fourth suit?  Some people play this shows extra values other play it is simply bidding out pattern.  I suppose the prototype for raising fourth suit is 1d-1s-2c-2h(fsf)-3h.  This auction is quite frequent and troublesome without discussing it beforehand.

******************************************

Having said that, I have a question regarding another deal;

Axx
x
KQJ109
AQxx

The auction proceed (I open bidding, unopposed) -

1d-1h-2c-2s

You can argue the merits of bidding 3C with this hand, however I refuse to bid 1D-3C with singleton in partners suit and no clear cut direction on hand.  What would you bid and why after 2s (fsf)?

FYI - I have polled about 20 experts on this hand, and the majority are split between two bids.

******************************************

At the table, I bid 3s and then partner bid 5h.  Whatever this is asking/telling I was willing to cooperate and I bid 5s, partner bid 5n, I bid 6c and he bid 7h.  This was not the best contract (7d was optimal and 7n was better than 7h, 7n will make on squeeze when 7h goes down).

His hand -

Jx
AKQxxx
Axx
Kx

[keylime]

4SF is something I think many folks don't truly understand in 2/1. It doesn't make it a bad treatment -- rather it's a treatment that is often mentioned by name but not openly discussed during play.

[inquiry]

Quote

How about  raising of fourth suit?  Some people play this shows extra values other play it is simply bidding out pattern.  I suppose the prototype for raising fourth suit is 1d-1s-2c-2h(fsf)-3h.  This auction is quite frequent and troublesome without discussing it beforehand.

******************************************

Having said that, I have a question regarding another deal;

Axx
x
KQJ109
AQxx

The auction proceed (I open bidding, unopposed) -

1d-1h-2c-2s

You can argue the merits of bidding 3C with this hand, however I refuse to bid 1D-3C with singleton in partners suit and no clear cut direction on hand.  What would you bid and why after 2s (fsf)?

FYI - I have polled about 20 experts on this hand, and the majority are split between two bids.

******************************************

At the table, I bid 3s and then partner bid 5h.  Whatever this is asking/telling I was willing to cooperate and I bid 5s, partner bid 5n, I bid 6c and he bid 7h.  This was not the best contract (7d was optimal and 7n was better than 7h, 7n will make on squeeze when 7h goes down).

His hand -

Jx
AKQxxx
Axx
Kx

I agree 100% with 3SPADES. If the hand belongs in 3NT, it belongs there from your partner's side (say he has SQx...). Having said that, what the heck is 5HEARTS. Jumps to five a major are typically asking for 6 with one of two conditions. If there is one unbid suit, it is asking for control in that suit. If there are no unbid suits, or two or more unbid suits, it is asking for slam with good trumps for this auction.

I think neither interpretation applies for this auction. I mean, there are no longer any unbid suits, and you have never really supported hearts. I think your partner has some grand scheme in mind, but the heck if I know what it is (well, I can see his hand now, but that is a different matter all together).

First, I am not passing. I have not shown my values yet, I have a whole lot of undisclosed values and partner is inviting slam. Second, I am not bidding 5NT. There is chance a pick up partner will pass this bid when I know I want to be in some slam (and maybe a grand slam). Sadly, there is no way to back up and check for quality of fit and controls... so I will bid 6 CLUBS as a kind of flexibile slam bid. Partner must know what he is doing.  With club support, 6 CLUBS may be the best spot. With really good hearts, partner can correct. And with three or four diamonds, partner can show his diamond support. If partner bids 6D I think I will bid 7. If he passes 6CLubs, he knows I have 4, if he bids 6 Hearts, I pass.

Your partner endplayed himself in the auction perhaps. I think a forcing 4 DIAMONDS over 3S will get you merrily to slam. Or if it was available, a game forcing 2H bid intially. After 4D, you would trot out blackwood, and when he shows 2 controls, use 5NT as a grand slam try. Come on with Kx of clubs and six beautiful hearts, is there anyway he doesn't bid 7Diamonds immediately over that?

Ben

[Codo]

Hi all,

you had some nice hands here:
AQxx  
A109x  
10xxx  
x  
 
1c-1h-2d-2s(me)-3h-3n-4c-4d-5n-6d-6h  

I play, that after a reverse 2 NT is a kind of sign off, so I could bid 3 Diamond instead of 2 Spade.
But as this was not discussed, 2 S was fine.
After 3 Heart, 4 Diamond is "obvious". I have a fit and would like to check about a slam. So I would show the fit. 3 NT was passable, no good idea. Partner must think, that 4 Diamond now shows a control with a heart fit.
Your later thoughts are maybe well thoughts, but much too much for a pick up partnership at the first board.

2.
Axx
x
KQJ109
AQxx

The auction proceed (I open bidding, unopposed) -

1d-1h-2c-2s

3 Spade was perfect: Extra values and clearly 3154 or
3064.
Now, it was difficult for pd:
4 Heart could be/should be a sign off. So 5 Heart was a slam try in hearts, fixing the trump suit and showing a problem in spades. This was the only suit, which was not bid naturally.
Anyway, I don`t know, what he saw in your bidding, but he erred.

Kidn Regards

Roland

[gabika73]

Deviating a bit from the mainstream topic...

Fourth suit after reverse:

Reverse will land the partnership in game 95+% of times. (I strongly disagree with reverses with 16 pts, however, if all 16 points are in the reversed suits, reverse can be good (esp with 3 card in parners bid major)).

Therefore, 3 of openers either suit is GF. All agree.

To slow the auction with weak hands, responder can use the bids below. These bids does not promise another bid if opener bids his cheaper suit: opener must bid something else to create GF.

1/ 2 of resp's suit. It shows a 5carder.
2/ 4th suit at level 2: denies stopper, denies 5card suit.
3/ 2nt. while denying 5 of own suit, it only shows stopper in 4th suit, iff bidding 4th suit were at level 3.

All other bids create gameforce.
(4th suit at level 3 would deny fit, and look for stopper.)


I was surprised not to have read this treatment in any of the posts.

So in the auction given:
2s: no S stopper, no 5+ ♥, and denies values or fit for a straight raise.
2nt: S stopper(s), probably no 5 ♥, and denies values or fit for a straight raise.
3nt: 10-12, no fit, and almost exactly 4432. (majors well stopped)
3m: good 8+, fit.

Seems obvious, for me, to bid 3d with the example hand. (I have working major aces, and i have ruffing power).
Partner can now show interest in slam. However, I will bid 3nt on any of his 3M bids.

A sequence of
1♣ - 1♥
2♦ - 2♠!
3♥ - 3nt
is kind of strange with the treatment described above.

Responder cannot have a weakish hand with spade stopper, as he would bid 2nt in the previous round with that.
He can't have 5 hearts, as 2♥ would be better bid the previous round.
He can't really have partial stopper in spades, as opener has pinpointed his singleton.
Surely he will not have support for wither minor.
What can he have? maybe a long, slow stopper in spades, which can stop (or induce the blocking of) the spade suit if opener has a singleton honor....

[whereagles]

Hi,

Didn't have time to read it all, but let me give just a small pointer: the french play FSF as..

A. Forcing for one round if opener can support responder's suit at the two-level
1♦ 1♠
2♣ 2♥ <--- opener can bid 2♠

B. Forcing to game otherwise
1♦ 1♥
2♣ 2♠ <--- opener would have to bid 3♥ to support responder

[helene_t]

I think that
1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠
should be fsf even if not playing Walsh. Responder does not have to show diamonds if he doesn't want to play in diamonds and a diamond bid would create a rebid problem. When playing a strong 1NT and not playing Walsh, the 1♥ rebid is not very clear and responder must be able to bid 1♠ as fsf to find out what it means. Of course, if 1♦ could be negative 1♠ is natural now.

Walsh creates another issue:
1♣-1♥
1♠-2♦
If Walsh does not apply to the 1♠-rebid, 2♣ could be a pubbet to 2♦, and 2♦ could be fsf.

[Fluffy]

Things to note about fsf:

There is no fsf by opener, it would be natural.
Already mentioned but: Raising fsf is natural when you can have the suit, 3 good cards otherwise.
Not very popular, but still after reverse and/or gf 2-suiter, fsf has no real sense, its better to stop answering opener, and switch to explain yourself: fsf after strong 2-suiters should be played as natural.

[paulhar]

Nothing to do with this thread, but the yellow type is unreadable on my monitor (and probably on others also.) For me, it works to block the type with my mouse, to temporarily see the text. Others might not be so lucky (who knows what happens in Linux?) But I suggest using a different color - thanx!

[inquiry]

paulhar, on Jul 14 2004, 10:41 AM, said:

Nothing to do with this thread, but the yellow type is unreadable on my monitor (and probably on others also.) For me, it works to block the type with my mouse, to temporarily see the text. Others might not be so lucky (who knows what happens in Linux?) But I suggest using a different color - thanx!

These are very old post from the original BBF site, which had a black background. Over there, yellow was the BEST color for ease of reading. When you read threads dating earlier than last summer, you will find a whole heck of a lot of Yellow colors being used. It is clear noone is using that color these days...


Ben