[gprentice]

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On this hand, dealer is north who passed. I opened two spades showing 5 spades and 4 of a minor and less than an opening hand. My partner bid 3NT and I passed. My main question is - should I pass as east instead of bidding two spades.

Three people bid 7NT, one table bid 7 clubs, 2 tables bid 6NT, 3 tables bid 6 clubs and two tables bid 3NT. Everyone made 7. What is the best way to bid this hand?

[smerriman]

Second attempt after I had a mistake in my first..

To make 12 tricks you need partner to have the ♥Q, or heart shortness with at least two trumps, or JT or possibly a finesse on Jx(x), or ♣T and ♠A. I don't know how to find any of that out scientifically, but I think it's enough to make me gamble on 6♣ but not 7 at both forms of scoring. Looking forward to seeing whether others would do better though!

What you bid with East's hand is really down to your partnership agreement.

[mw64ahw]

There is no issue with East's bid if it conforms to partnership agreement, but West's 3N is a shut-up.

With 12 playing tricks and 11 tricks in hand almost guaranteed a 2N enquiry elicits a 3♠ response unless you have some bid to show this shape. Now you have to find the bid(s) which gets you to the slam.

I'm tempted with 5N in this case as pick a slam which should result in 7N here absent any detailed agreements to pinpoint hcp distribution.

4N will identify AK♠ and discount Q♠, but do you have a bid to ask for Q♥?

[Cyberyeti]

To me it doesn't conform to partnership agreements as I'd open 1♠ on the east hand, which is rule of 19, but with the intermediates worth more.

K&R says in excess of 13, I wouldn't go that far, but I'd say it's worth a lot more than 10.

The one you really can't identify is something like QJ10xx, xx, J109xx, x which is cold for 7♦.

[gprentice]

 mw64ahw, on 2024-August-30, 01:28, said:

There is no issue with East's bid if it conforms to partnership agreement, but West's 3N is a shut-up.

With 12 playing tricks and 11 tricks in hand almost guaranteed a 2N enquiry elicits a 3♠ response unless you have some bid to show this shape. Now you have to find the bid(s) which gets you to the slam.

I'm tempted with 5N in this case as pick a slam which should result in 7N here absent any detailed agreements to pinpoint hcp distribution.

4N will identify AK♠ and discount Q♠, but do you have a bid to ask for Q♥?

After 2NT enquiry, 3♠ does indeed show diamonds and a maximum hand. After 4NT keycard we play 1430 then 5NT is king ask showing we have all 5 keycards but we have no way of showing or asking for anything else. We've only just started playing 5NT as pick a slam.

[mw64ahw]

 gprentice, on 2024-August-30, 02:21, said:

After 2NT enquiry, 3♠ does indeed show diamonds and a maximum hand. After 4NT keycard we play 1430 then 5NT is king ask showing we have all 5 keycards but we have no way of showing or asking for anything else. We've only just started playing 5NT as pick a slam.

After 4N would you not play 5N as even keycards with a void?

[gprentice]

Do you mean 5NT as a response to 4NT, if so, no, we don't do that. Does "even" mean with either 2 or 4 keycards. I guess we could do that, is that what experts do?
We don't play exclusion blackwood either but we are gradually learning new things.

[mw64ahw]

 gprentice, on 2024-August-30, 04:30, said:

Do you mean 5NT as a response to 4NT, if so, no, we don't do that. Does "even" mean with either 2 or 4 keycards. I guess we could do that, is that what experts do?
We don't play exclusion blackwood either but we are gradually learning new things.

Yes that's one way of playing it.

As Cyberyeti points out this hand plays distributionally strong so if you don't have the points for 2N then game may be missed. Conversely if you open 1♠ you can end up in 3N on a misfit. Pass may also work if you don't like the void for this 2-level opener; you may have an opportunity later.

On balance I also end up opening 1♠, but don't play 2/1 GF.

[mikeh]

I had to laugh, reading the posts of those who claim they’d always reach slam after the 2S opening. Yes, west could decide to hope to buy well and just close his eyes and bid something but to expect ever to reach 7N while knowing that it was a decent contract is plain silly. I note that nobody actually gives an auction.

It’s a classic example of people seeing that 7N makes and then claiming a magical ability to bid it.

I’ve played muiderberg two bids in international competition so I’m familiar with the issues that arise after 2S. Let me just point out that KQJ10x xxx Jxxxxx void would be a classic 2S bid. For those who assert that they’d reach any grand, tell me how your partnership bids with that east hand. Note that I gave east the diamond Jack….which he doesn’t have to have.

Let me add that even with that magical heart Queen and the spade ace, neither of which east promises by his opening and the first of which is, for practical purposes, impossible to show, 7N or 7C are not good contracts at imps, but they are at matchpoints. Grands are good at mps if they are better than 50% but most experts think that a grand should be 75% or better to bid at imps, and here we need either a 4-3 club break (around 63%) or the 10 dropping…I’m not sure of that percentage but I think the total chances in clubs are less than 75%.

I suspect I’d find out that east was 5-5, via a response to an asking 2N, but that really doesn’t help much. If I did reach grand, it’d be 7D. 2S 2N 3S (5S5D) 4H kickback (no need for exclusion here and indeed we want to know about the spade ace to avoid being forced to ruff a spade early, possibly creating a diamond loser opposite 10xxxx or worse.

Opener shows a keycard, obviously the spade ace. Now 7D is a reasonable shot…opener will hold the diamond Jack half the time and diamonds will behave most of the times he doesn’t have it, so 7D is well over 75%

It happens to make as the cards lie. Funny how knowing that the field didn’t bid diamonds made all the posters ignore that strain. I do understand why posters show all the hands, but this is just another in a long series of posts that show that many posters in reply are unable to post objectively.

Btw, if he shows no keycards (2S 2N 3S 4H 4N would be the bidding, playing 1430), we’d play 4N

[Cyberyeti]

Replying to Mike, I can't reach it after a 2♠ opener, but can after 1♠ in several ways.

1♠-2♣
2♦-2♥(not GF)
3♦-4♥(Kickback ♦)
4N(1/4)-5♥(I have the K or Q♥, bid the grand with the other)
7♦-7N

If you know partner is 5-5 with ♥Q and ♠A 7N is good as you have good chances even if the clubs don't break. Yes you may have to make an awkward discard on a spade lead which will mess up some of the squeezes though, the ♠K will be useful, but so would any other cards partner can have to make up his opening bid except possibly ♠QJ.

[mw64ahw]

 mikeh, on 2024-August-30, 06:36, said:

I had to laugh, reading the posts of those who claim they’d always reach slam after the 2S opening. Yes, west could decide to hope to buy well and just close his eyes and bid something but to expect ever to reach 7N while knowing that it was a decent contract is plain silly. I note that nobody actually gives an auction.

It’s a classic example of people seeing that 7N makes and then claiming a magical ability to bid it.

I’ve played muiderberg two bids in international competition so I’m familiar with the issues that arise after 2S. Let me just point out that KQJ10x xxx Jxxxxx void would be a classic 2S bid. For those who assert that they’d reach any grand, tell me how your partnership bids with that east hand. Note that I gave east the diamond Jack….which he doesn’t have to have.

Let me add that even with that magical heart Queen and the spade ace, neither of which east promises by his opening and the first of which is, for practical purposes, impossible to show, 7N or 7C are not good contracts at imps, but they are at matchpoints. Grands are good at mps if they are better than 50% but most experts think that a grand should be 75% or better to bid at imps, and here we need either a 4-3 club break (around 63%) or the 10 dropping…I’m not sure of that percentage but I think the total chances in clubs are less than 75%.

I suspect I’d find out that east was 5-5, via a response to an asking 2N, but that really doesn’t help much. If I did reach grand, it’d be 7D. 2S 2N 3S (5S5D) 4H kickback (no need for exclusion here and indeed we want to know about the spade ace to avoid being forced to ruff a spade early, possibly creating a diamond loser opposite 10xxxx or worse.

Opener shows a keycard, obviously the spade ace. Now 7D is a reasonable shot…opener will hold the diamond Jack half the time and diamonds will behave most of the times he doesn’t have it, so 7D is well over 75%

It happens to make as the cards lie. Funny how knowing that the field didn’t bid diamonds made all the posters ignore that strain. I do understand why posters show all the hands, but this is just another in a long series of posts that show that many posters in reply are unable to post objectively.

Btw, if he shows no keycards (2S 2N 3S 4H 4N would be the bidding, playing 1430), we’d play 4N

I don't see any posts claiming that slam is always reached after a 2♠ opening. Are there some phantom posts?

With West's AKQ♦ I'd always expect East to have 5♦, but not that shape given I'd open 1♠ in this case. Regardless 5N feels like a fine bid in this case where methods are less developed.

[mikeh]

 mw64ahw, on 2024-August-30, 08:59, said:

I don't see any posts claiming that slam is always reached after a 2♠ opening. Are there some phantom posts?

With West's AKQ♦ I'd always expect East to have 5♦, but not that shape given I'd open 1♠ in this case. Regardless 5N feels like a fine bid in this case where methods are less developed.

May I suggest you read your original post, lol. How soon we forget. You wrote that at some point you’d bid 5N ‘which should result in 7N’ which comment did make me laugh out loud.

Maybe you could elaborate on how 5N ‘should result in 7N’…..and, if you can’t, then stop with asinine posts that appear to be intended to show how wonderfully you bid when you can see all 52 cards.

[mw64ahw]

 mikeh, on 2024-August-30, 11:41, said:

May I suggest you read your original post, lol. How soon we forget. You wrote that at some point you'd bid 5N 'which should result in 7N' which comment did make me laugh out loud.

Maybe you could elaborate on how 5N 'should result in 7N'…..and, if you can't, then stop with asinine posts that appear to be intended to show how wonderfully you bid when you can see all 52 cards.

The only thing asinine is your comment and previous hyperbole. You should know better given your experience
If responder bypasses 4N & 4♥ as kickback in preference for 5N pick a slam what would you bid with 2 quick tricks and Qxx if you trust your partner's bid?

[mikeh]

 mw64ahw, on 2024-August-30, 13:07, said:

The only thing asinine is your comment and previous hyperbole. You should know better given your experience
If responder bypasses 4N & 4♥ as kickback in preference for 5N pick a slam what would you bid with 2 quick tricks and Qxx if you trust your partner's bid?

Lol

To expand. If I understand you correctly (maybe I don’t, since you seem very careful to avoid explanations) you suggest 2S 2N 3S (you don’t seem to think it necessary to explain how you think 3S should be played, so I’ll assume you think it merely shows a max, which is not how I’ve seen it played….2N is usually asking about which minor one holds rather than how many hcp one holds) followed by 5N, pick a slam.

Please explain the reasoning behind what you think east should do, given that (a) he has zero idea of west’s shape and (b) maybe west is interested in his minor (given the brutal methods you assume, how else is responder involving diamonds?) and © east has already shown a max and (d) how on earth does east know that he has what it takes to bid 7N?


Force some good player to sit in after 5N and I’d bet that almost everyone would bid 6D. Now how does the pair reach 7N?


Actually, my prediction is that you’ll come up with some weird arguments that probably don’t even make real sense to you, but in all of the ‘unusual’ posts you’ve made you’ve never admitted to being wrong so I can’t see you starting now. Hence the lol.

[nullve]

 mikeh, on 2024-August-30, 13:37, said:

Lol

To expand. If I understand you correctly (maybe I don’t, since you seem very careful to avoid explanations) you suggest 2S 2N 3S (you don’t seem to think it necessary to explain how you think 3S should be played, so I’ll assume you think it merely shows a max, which is not how I’ve seen it played….2N is usually asking about which minor one holds rather than how many hcp one holds) followed by 5N, pick a slam.

Are you sure you were playing Muiderberg and not e.g. Polish 2M openings?

Since Muiderberg can have a wide range like 6-10 or wider, any thinking pair would see the need for some kind of range ask. And I believe it's pretty standard to play

2M-2N; ?:

3♣ = MIN, 4+ C
3♦ = MIN, 4+ D
3♥ = MAX, 4+ C
3♠ = MAX, 4+ D

So 3♠ doesn't merely show MAX, it also shows diamonds. I expect it does for mw64ahw as well.

[gprentice]

I don't think I mentioned the vulnerability, everyone was non vul.

We play Muuiderberg as described here
https://www.bridgebu...rg_two_bids.php

where 3 spades shows diamonds and a max hand.
I didn't know that when vul, the suits should be 5/5.
We have no way of showing five diamonds by east.
It was matchpoints on Realbridge.

[mikeh]

nullve, on 2024-August-30, 17:28, said:

Are you sure you were playing Muiderberg and not e.g. Polish 2M openings?

Since Muiderberg can have a wide range like 6-10 or wider, any thinking pair would see the need for some kind of range ask. And I believe it's pretty standard to play

2M-2N; ?:

3♣ = MIN, 4+ C
3♦ = MIN, 4+ D
3♥ = MAX, 4+ C
3♠ = MAX, 4+ D

So 3♠ doesn't merely show MAX, it also shows diamonds. I expect it does for mw64ahw as well.

Of course it shows diamonds, altho the OP may have left that out, complicating further discussion. But wtf does that have to do with my main point, which is that there is, imo, no plausible auction to 7N after 2S? I’ve been trying to get mw64 to explain but, unsurprisingly, he won’t…because, so I infer, he can’t. He’s just another poster who is incredibly brilliant when (a) he gets to bid both hands and (b) he sees all 52 cards. Jeez…I’m pretty sure I’d be at least as good as him p, if I had those advantages. But, and I know this may surprise some people, ,that’s not how we play (absent self kibitzing online, lol).

[mw64ahw]

mikeh, on 2024-August-30, 22:31, said:

Of course it shows diamonds, altho the OP may have left that out, complicating further discussion. But wtf does that have to do with my main point, which is that there is, imo, no plausible auction to 7N after 2S? I've been trying to get mw64 to explain but, unsurprisingly, he won't…because, so I infer, he can't. He's just another poster who is incredibly brilliant when (a) he gets to bid both hands and (b) he sees all 52 cards. Jeez…I'm pretty sure I'd be at least as good as him p, if I had those advantages. But, and I know this may surprise some people, ,that's not how we play (absent self kibitzing online, lol).

'If responder bypasses 4N & 4♥ as kickback in preference for 5N pick a slam what would you bid with 2 quick tricks and Qxx if you trust your partner's bid?'

Sounds like you'd pick 6♦; I wouldn't progress after that.

At the table I'd trust my partner and pick 7N with 2 quick tricks and Qxx because I'd count the tricks.To be more precise that's the logic built into my bidding simulator so I can confidently say your a) and b) won't factor. Will 7N always make?; no because you bid within a probability range.

With fewer playing/actual tricks/lack of an unbid suit control, but still slamish, it won't play Kickback, but sets ♦ with 4♣ and plays Kickbo if ♠. This way it can stop in 5 or bid onto a grand if the right cards are identified.

[Zelandakh]

mikeh, on 2024-August-30, 06:36, said:

I note that nobody actually gives an auction.

mikeh, on 2024-August-30, 22:31, said:

there is, imo, no plausible auction to 7N after 2S?

Well I hate to disagree with you Mike but...here's one:-

2♠ = Muiderberg
... - 2NT = relay
3♠ = ♦ max
... - 4♣ = nat SI
4♦ = 5th ♦
... - 5♠ = XRKCB
5NT = 1 kc
... - 6♥ = SSA
7♣ = ♥Qx(x)
... - 7NT = 1♠, 3♥, 3♦, 4♣ with 3-2 diamonds or 4-3 clubs to provide the last 2.

It is obviously a lot simpler if East passes or opens 1♠ so giving an auction for those case seems redundant. I am not saying I would 100% bid it this way - it requires some solid partnership agreements for one thing - but West not at least trying just seems like bad bridge.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2024-August-31, 14:47, said:

Well I hate to disagree with you Mike but...here's one:-

2♠ = Muiderberg
... - 2NT = relay
3♠ = ♦ max
... - 4♣ = nat SI
4♦ = 5th ♦
... - 5♠ = XRKCB
5NT = 1 kc
... - 6♥ = SSA
7♣ = ♥Qx(x)
... - 7NT = 1♠, 3♥, 3♦, 4♣ with 3-2 diamonds or 4-3 clubs to provide the last 2.

It is obviously a lot simpler if East passes or opens 1♠ so giving an auction for those case seems redundant. I am not saying I would 100% bid it this way - it requires some solid partnership agreements for one thing - but West not at least trying just seems like bad bridge.

If 5♠ is exclusion, how does partner have 1 ? nothing outside spades.

I also don't think you can afford 6♥ as a SSA. What does partner do differently with KQJ10x, QJx, xxxxx, void ?