[jh51]

---

My partner held this opposite my 2NT (20-21) opening, At the table she transferred to spades and then bid 3NT, which I passed, having only the Ax of spades. We missed our 4-4 heart fit, and there are 11 easy tricks at hearts when the diamond finesse works and East has KJx of spades.

With our current agreements, 3♣ is Puppet Stayman, so we would have gotten to 4♥ if that is what she bids. But can we get to 4♠ if instead of the actual hand, I have 3 spades and 3 or 2 hearts, but play safely in NT when I hold fewer than 3 spades? Or is this just one of the shortcomings of puppet Stayman? (You give up something to get something.)

[mgoetze]

jh51, on 2011-June-07, 10:02, said:

---

My partner held this opposite my 2NT (20-21) opening, At the table she transferred to spades and then bid 3NT, which I passed, having only the Ax of spades. We missed our 4-4 heart fit, and there are 11 easy tricks at hearts when the diamond finesse works and East has KJx of spades.

With our current agreements, 3♣ is Puppet Stayman, so we would have gotten to 4♥ if that is what she bids. But can we get to 4♠ if instead of the actual hand, I have 3 spades and 3 or 2 hearts, but play safely in NT when I hold fewer than 3 spades? Or is this just one of the shortcomings of puppet Stayman? (You give up something to get something.)

You can play that 2NT-3♠ shows this hand. Alternatively you can find dozens of alternatives to Puppet Stayman in threads linked from my Systems Index: http://bridge.mgoetze.net/bbf.html

If you play Puppet Stayman without that 3♠ bid you cannot show this handtype.

[helene_t]

you can also play that a direct 3NT bid shows this hand, or that opener shows a 3-card spades in response to PS, for example:

2NT-3♣
3♦*-3♥**
3♠***

*4 hearts and/or 3-4 spades

** 4-5 spades

*** 3 spades.

[Vampyr]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-07, 10:15, said:

If you play Puppet Stayman without that 3♠ bid you cannot show this handtype.

Yes you can, with a small modification.

After 2NT-3♣, 3♥ shows a hand with no 4- or 5-card majors. Then 3♠ shows 5♠-4♥.
Use 3NT to show a hand with 5 hearts.

[mgoetze]

Vampyr, on 2011-June-07, 10:24, said:

Yes you can, with a small modification.

After 2NT-3♣, 3♥ shows a hand with no 4- or 5-card majors. Then 3♠ shows 5♠-4♥.
Use 3NT to show a hand with 5 hearts.

That's not Puppet Stayman if you ask me. As mentioned, non-Puppet variations have been discussed to death in various other threads.

[jmcw]

Getting to 4♥ should be routine. The problem is to find 5/3♠ when 4/4♥ does not exist.
There is a number of ways to accomplish this. Luckily for me I play a NF 3NT showing 5♠/4♥, I play 2NT>>3♠ as a transfer to 3NT.

2NT

3♦ = transfer to ♥ then 3♠ natural/4♠
3♥ = transfer to ♠
3♠ = transfer to 3NT
3NT = 5♠/4♥ NF

[Phil]

Playing Muppet its not hard, and you don't have to burn a bid like 3♠ (that also wrongsides the contract) to show this hand type.

2N - 3♣
3♥* - 3N = 5♠4♥, NF

* no four card major (3N shows hearts and 4♦ retransfers)

[Vampyr]

Phil, on 2011-June-07, 10:44, said:

Playing Muppet its not hard, and you don't have to burn a bid like 3♠ (that also wrongsides the contract) to show this hand type.

2N - 3♣
3♥* - 3N = 5♠4♥, NF

* no four card major (3N shows hearts and 4♦ retransfers)

This is similar to the variant I mentioned above, but it seems a bit strange. How can you play 5-card Stayman if you don't have the ability to sign off when you don't find a 5-card major opposite?

[Vampyr]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-07, 10:29, said:

That's not Puppet Stayman if you ask me. As mentioned, non-Puppet variations have been discussed to death in various other threads.

Well, it is just like classic Puppet Stayman but with 2 rebids interchanged -- I think it is close enough.

jmcw, on 2011-June-07, 10:31, said:

Getting to 4♥ should be routine. The problem is to find 5/3♠ when 4/4♥ does not exist.
There is a number of ways to accomplish this. Luckily for me I play a NF 3NT showing 5♠/4♥, I play 2NT>>3♠ as a transfer to 3NT.

2NT

3♦ = transfer to ♥ then 3♠ natural/4♠
3♥ = transfer to ♠
3♠ = transfer to 3NT
3NT = 5♠/4♥ NF

It seems like you are underutilising your 3NT response. With the method I mentioned, 2NT-3♠ can be played as a transfer to 3NT, to play or to make various minor suit game tries -- I am sure you do the same -- but 2NT-3NT is freed up. We play Baron, but there are probably other good uses for it too.

[Phil]

Vampyr, on 2011-June-07, 17:44, said:

This is similar to the variant I mentioned above, but it seems a bit strange. How can you play 5-card Stayman if you don't have the ability to sign off when you don't find a 5-card major opposite?

Responder bids 3♠ over 3♥ that puppets back to 3N. Its a little work, but it keeps things right sided and covers all hand types for the most part.

[jmcw]

Vampyr, on 2011-June-07, 17:54, said:

It seems like you are underutilising your 3NT response. With the method I mentioned, 2NT-3♠ can be played as a transfer to 3NT, to play or to make various minor suit game tries -- I am sure you do the same -- but 2NT-3NT is freed up. We play Baron, but there are probably other good uses for it too.

After 2NT - 3♠ - I play various slam tries. Perhaps thats what you meant in your post.
I don't think I want to make a minor game try of a 2NT opener.

[kenrexford]

A few posts of mine might be interesting to you.

http://cuebiddingatb...t-extended.html

http://cuebiddingatb...ter-kokish.html

http://cuebiddingatb...as-stayman.html

[TWO4BRIDGE]

MUPPET is just like Puppet except Opener "reverses ( switches ) the meanings" of 3H and 3NT:
2NT - 3C!
??
... 3D! = one or both 4 card Majors
... 3H! = NO 4 or 5 card Major
... 3S = 5 cards Sp
... 3NT! = 5 cards Hts

2NT - 3C!
3H! - 3S! = 5s/4h
??
... 3NT = no 3s
... 4S = 3s ( but note Responder will declare )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Summary:
---When Responder holds 4s/5h, he TRANSFERS first .

---When Responder holds 5s/4h, he uses STAYMAN ( Muppet replies ) first.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now to confuse you even further, there has been a refinement in order to "rightside" the 4S contract
when Opener has 3s:
2NT - 3C!
3H! - ??

3S! = relay to 3NT to play ( Responder does NOT have 5s.... he has only 4h )
3NT! = Responder HAS 5s/4h and Opener passes with 2s but bids 4S with 3s
( now the 4S contract is declared by Opener ) .

[Vampyr]

Phil, on 2011-June-07, 18:18, said:

Responder bids 3♠ over 3♥ that puppets back to 3N. Its a little work, but it keeps things right sided and covers all hand types for the most part.

As above, yes. We don't worry about that because the great majority of our 2NT bids are 20-21 and those have been through Kokish, so the heart contracts are already right-sided and the spade contracts can never be.

jmcw, on 2011-June-07, 18:32, said:

I don't think I want to make a minor game try of a 2NT opener.

Seriously?

[Hanoi5]

I like to play:

2NT 3♣
3♦ Not 5 spades or 4/5 hearts
3♥ 4/5♥
3♠ 5♠
3ST 4♥/4♠

Then:

2NT 3♣
3♦3♥ How many spades you've got?
  3♠ Bid 3NT
  3NT 5♥-4♠

2NT 3♣
3♦3♥
3♠
3NT (2 spades)
4♠

And:
2NT 3♣
3♥ 3♠ How many hearts?
  3NT To play

2NT 3♣
3♥ 3♠
3NT 4♥
4♥ 5♥

[barryallen]

I once saw a Dutch pair use what I would term as inverted puppet. That being a negative response to 2♣ showed a 5 card major and a 4 card major was bid directly.

2NT-3♣
3♦ (shows a 5 card major)

-3♥ (shows 3+♠)
-3♠ (shows 3+♥)
-3NT (shows 3+♥ and 3+♠)



2NT-3♣
3♥ (shows 4♥, does not deny 4♠)

-3♠ (denies 4♠), forcing a 3NT response
-3NT (shows 4♠, denies 4♥)


2NT-3♣
3♠* (shows 4♠, denies 4♥)
3NT (denies a 4 card major)


I am assuming most of this from just a couple of sequences. I made a mental note to investigate further and that was as far as I got, apart from one effort. I am sure someone knows how this works fully and can correct any errors.

[jjbrr]

I can see I'm a few days late to this party, but I'd just like to offer that puppet stayman over 2NT openers is one of my least favorite conventions. I think it gives people a lot of headaches with very, very little gain.

I know all the scientists are going to disagree and tell me how great their modified puppet is and how they never miss a fit, but I'd just like to point out that it's often easier to take 9 tricks than 10, it's not always right to play a 5-3 fit, and it really matters so infrequently in the long run that it just isn't worth worrying that much about. These 5-4 hands can just go through smolen, so the only thing we lose is that we give a little extra info to the opponents sometimes, and sometimes we don't play a 5-3 fit in a specific situation.

[JLOGIC]

I don't play puppet either but I think you underestimate how often playing the 5-3 fit is right on the hands that you should use puppet on. For instance, maybe with hands like Qxx Kx Qxxx xxxx in the long term bidding 2N-3N will come out about equal with bidding puppet then 3N (you will probably win a little when you do find a 5-3 fit, and probably lose a little when you don't, whatever), but probably with 1354 hand types it will be a huge winner to play puppet, and 5332 with Hxx of and a 2 small or whatever it will be a decent winner.

[bluecalm]

Quote

For instance, maybe with hands like Qxx Kx Qxxx xxxx in the long term bidding 2N-3N will come out about equal

Can't prove it but imo you lose significantly with such hands even if it's only for lead directing double but there is also thing about them not leading into your 5card major.

Quote

, but probably with 1354 hand types it will be a huge winner to play puppet

YEAHBUT you get 3-1 or 1-3 majors and at least 4pc once every 40 times your partner opens 2NT and out of those 40 times he will have 5card major opposite your fragment about one time in ten (if my simulations are correct, might be not big enough sample cause those hands are rare and it's taking forever). So once every 400 hands you gain from it. Do you think that giving them 399 chances to double your puppet or not leading into your 5card major when it hits shortness will not make up for this ?

Imo people rarely think in terms of frequency and effectivness and they like conventions which looks pretty and cover esoteric hands. The same situation is after 1NT opener. At imps it's profitable to bash 3NT with many 5M-3-3-2 and 4M-4-3-2 hands but nobody is doing it (yet) cause the tools for assessing those plays aren't widely available and people are risk aversed and they are scared of opponents running their suit when 9 trump major game was available.

[campboy]

bluecalm, on 2011-June-11, 13:40, said:

YEAHBUT you get 3-1 or 1-3 majors and at least 4pc once every 40 times your partner opens 2NT and out of those 40 times he will have 5card major opposite your fragment about one time in ten (if my simulations are correct, might be not big enough sample cause those hands are rare and it's taking forever). So once every 400 hands you gain from it. Do you think that giving them 399 chances to double your puppet or not leading into your 5card major when it hits shortness will not make up for this ?

It's not 399 chances but more like 9 chances -- on the other hands either both methods will be bidding 3♣ or neither will be bidding 3♣, so they're not getting any extra chances to double it (or to find out which major opener has). And even if you were so worried about giving extra chances for them to double that you decided never to bid puppet on a hand where you would not have used Stayman, puppet would still gain on a fair number of hands.