[P_Marlowe]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-07, 08:24, said:

Could the posts about nonstandard treatments like 1♠ forcing please be moved to, say, the SAYC and 2/1 Forum?

Although I agree, that some of the posts, e.g. the one suggesting to play 2S as a splinter
dont belong in the B/I section, I am just asking, why do you believe 1S NF to be standard?

Did you find this in a text book intended for B/I?
I did find the comment, that one could play 1S as F in a B/I book.

Additionnally at least one comment mentioned, that his answer was implicitly based on
the assumption, that 1S is forcing.
So raising ther point, so that the partnership is aware, that this is to be discussed
/ to be agreed belongs to the question. (*)

One of the biggest B/I mistakes I see on the table is jumping around to make sure, p bids
again, because quite often the player in question does not know, that bidding the suit without
the jump was already forcing.

(*) Just saw, that the splinter topic was voiced as question, nevertheless most
likely this should be moved to a new thread.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

1s nonforcing for me but I understand those who prefer 2s gameforce here.

Pard could easily have:

xx...AXXX...x....xxxxxx

[mgoetze]

P_Marlowe, on 2011-June-07, 08:35, said:

I am just asking, why do you believe 1S NF to be standard?

Proof in two parts:

I. SAYC and BWS2001 do not even bother to mention whether this bid is forcing or not, so there must be a clear standard. It remains to establish what that standard is.

II. Fred Gitelman's Learn to Play Bridge, chapter "More on Bidding", section "Opener's minimum rebids" states:

Quote

Responder is allowed to pass opener's non-forcing 1♠ rebid, but he should be aware that opener could have up to 18 total points for a 1♠ rebid.

q.e.d.

[billw55]

The question of whether 1♠ is forcing may be interesting, and it is certainly important to be on the same page with partner about such a basic auction.

But on this hand - I consider it almost irrelevant. 2♠ is very descriptive and I choose it even if 1♠ is absolutely forcing.

Some posters point out that 1♠ can go as high as 17 or even 18 (per Fred's book). I say this hand is clearly worth more than that. At a rock bottom bare minimum, I rate AKQx as 10 points, KQJxxx as 8, and Jxx in partner's suit, with a void, as 2. That adds up to a very conservative valuation of 20 points, and realistically more like 22-23.

There are lots barebones responses partner can hold that make game a big favorite. Let's set a game force right away, then proceed calmly from there. But if I choose 1♠ and get a routine 1NT from partner - now what is my game forcing bid? Or my next one?

[mike777]

billw55, on 2011-June-07, 10:05, said:

There are lots barebones responses partner can hold that make game a big favorite. Let's set a game force right away, then proceed calmly from there. But if I choose 1♠ and get a routine 1NT from partner - now what is my game forcing bid? Or my next one?

3d




1d=1h
1s=1nt

[billw55]

mike777, on 2011-June-07, 10:26, said:

3d




1d=1h
1s=1nt

A rebid of my own suit? Some would treat that as invitational.

[JLOGIC]

I'd bid 2S, this hand is worth a gf because partner bid our Jxx. If our clubs and hearts were reversed then 1S.

[nigel_k]

JLOGIC, on 2011-June-07, 11:54, said:

I'd bid 2S, this hand is worth a gf because partner bid our Jxx. If our clubs and hearts were reversed then 1S.

Agree with this.

At some point in order to progress in the game you have to stop thinking in terms of evaluating the strength of a single hand and move to working out how many tricks you can take given an appropriate range of hands for partner. Here the relevant range of hands is those that would pass 1♠. The first example you ought to consider is something like xxx KQxx xx xxxx where game is ok. This example also underlines Justin's point that 1♠ is correct if our clubs and hearts were reversed.

Partner could have a worse hand such as xxx Qxxx xx Kxxx where game is terrible but could also have a slightly better hand than the first example and still pass 1♠. Note also that partner may pass with five hearts (which is likely to be bad) and is more likely to pass with nothing in clubs as 1NT will be less attractive, and the minimums with weak clubs are the ones where you want to be in game.

[helene_t]

1eyedjack, on 2011-June-07, 05:46, said:

Yes I should have said in my original response that I would have expected a 1S rebid to be forcing (with the possible exception of responder being a passed hand).

Why should it matter if responder is a passed hand? If anything, a 4th seat opener is more likely to have the awkward 20-count that would like 1♠ to be forcing.

[1eyedjack]

helene_t, on 2011-June-07, 14:24, said:

Why should it matter if responder is a passed hand? If anything, a 4th seat opener is more likely to have the awkward 20-count that would like 1♠ to be forcing.

Sorry, missed the post. You are right I think. I was thinking about responder catering for a light 3rd seat opener.

[Phil]

I love the downvote on 'suggesting' 1♠ is forcing in the B/I, and the multiple downvote on the detailed structure of follow-ups after an artificial 2♠ is very funny.

I would bid 2♠. The OP asks a good question - when is it right to make a jump shift that is GF? The heart support is a big bonus, and we have a great chance of landing in one of three strains, or 3N.

I would not jump shift with AKQx void KQJxxx Jxx.

[jules101]

---

These are the hands. Partner made 13 tricks on a club lead.

I wasn't happy about passing 3N, but it looked like pard had values in clubs, and would he have A♦?

Maybe 3N is best spot.

At teams with regular pard I think I try 4♦ over 3N and if we play in 5♦rather than slam then so be it!


I like to think regular pard wouldn't have bid 3N here tho... My guess is that auction would start....

---

2♣ is FTG, and 4th suit then supporting pard shows a hand too strong to just jump to 4♠, so with luck we're off to the races!


If as many of you suggest I had jump shifted 2♠ rather than rebidding 1♠ then we'd have been off to the races as well!

Many thanks to all for their advice.

[bill1157]

[quote name='jules101' timestamp='1308145938' post='554089']

---

These are the hands. Partner made 13 tricks on a club lead.

I wasn't happy about passing 3N,

Why is South rebidding 3NT and not 4♠??

[jules101]

Good question. I wasn't South tho. Maybe he thought 3N scores better, and with the helpful lead 520 outscored 510.

Surely 4♠ is wrong too even without a jump shift?

You know you are going to game at least, so what's the rush?! Is there a fire?

[Cyberyeti]

jules101, on 2011-June-15, 08:33, said:

Good question. I wasn't South tho. Maybe he thought 3N scores better, and with the helpful lead 520 outscored 510.

Surely 4♠ is wrong too even without a jump shift?

You know you are going to game at least, so what's the rush?! Is there a fire?

3N is barking mad, he deserved to catch AKxx, void, QJ10xxx, Kxx meaning you probably can't make 3N but 4♠ is excellent and 6♠ is more likely to make than 3N.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Quote

---

These are the hands. Partner made 13 tricks on a club lead.

From my post #8 :

I think this hand is strong enough for a game-forcing, strong-jump-shift.
And, I've created some followups based on GGG ( Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget ) over a 1H Response :

1D - 1H
2S! - 2NT! ( asks for clarification ):
??
.. 3C! = 4s, no 3h, 5+d
.. 3D! = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h
.. 3H! = 3h, no 4s, 5+d
.. 3S! = 4s AND 3h, 5+d, ergo club shortness .. Sweet !

After:
3S! - 5S ( asking trump quality : to bid 6 w/2 of the top 3 honors )
5NT!( Josephine = 3 top honors ) - ?? some sort of Grand Slam try, showing all key cards, and Opener will accept with that stellar Diam suit.

[the hog]

Vampyr, on 2011-June-07, 05:30, said:

Your observation is correct; but does anyone actually play this?

Certainly, many people play this. Why wouldn't you. In fact among strong players here, I don't know of anyone who does not play this.

[han]

Phil, on 2011-June-09, 10:21, said:

I love the downvote on 'suggesting' 1♠ is forcing in the B/I.

I don't. Some beginners are taught that new suits are forcing, and some worldclass partnerships play that 1S is forcing. Apparently you consider 1S NF standard, but obviously some others posters do not. I see no reason why your opinion is worth more than theirs, or why they shouldn't give their opinion.

I prefer 1S NF btw.

[wank]

as others have said this hand is worth a GF 2♠.

as for 1♠ being forcing, this may be popular in expert circles in certain areas, but among less experienced players, I would be very surprised to hear anyone playing it as such.

[the hog]

wank, on 2011-June-20, 07:05, said:

as others have said this hand is worth a GF 2♠.

as for 1♠ being forcing, this may be popular in expert circles in certain areas, but among less experienced players, I would be very surprised to hear anyone playing it as such.

Well be surprised then. Even amongst weak club players here 1S is forcing, and it is taught as such.