[P_Marlowe]

Vampyr, on 2011-June-07, 09:28, said:

It seems to me that if you are going to play 2/1GF you might as well take advantage of its good points, such as the ability to shape out, but it seems that a lot of practitioners play that 2♠, 3♣ and even 2NT (when already playing a strong NT) promise extra values. I'd be interested in learning which approach is standard and would be assumed with a pick-up partner.

The 2NT rebid by opener is quite often played as mixed range, 12-14 or 18-19.

I would say, that the reverse showing add. strength is more common, ... but this is
just my impression, and my 2/1 knowledge is limited to the things I play what I
play personnally and what I read on BBF.

Lots of peoble also say / claim / play, that when opener is rebidding his major
he is showing 6 cards, ... and that does not mesh very well with reverses /
high reverses showing add. strength, you have to bid something with a min opener
and a 54 shape.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[cherdano]

This thread is just weird to me. In standard bidding there is no alternative to 1♠ and 3♦ if you are 4=2=4=3 or 4=3=4=2 and you want to try for slam.

[Vampyr]

Thanks for the info.

P_Marlowe, on 2011-June-07, 09:33, said:

The 2NT rebid by opener is quite often played as mixed range, 12-14 or 18-19.

How does this get clarified? Sorry for straying so far off topic.

[P_Marlowe]

cherdano, on 2011-June-07, 09:49, said:

This thread is just weird to me. In standard bidding there is no alternative to 1♠ and 3♦ if you are 4=2=4=3 or 4=3=4=2 and you want to try for slam.

Ok - what do you bid, after opener bids 3H?
And what add. information have you got, that makes now all the difference?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Vampyr, on 2011-June-07, 09:52, said:

Thanks for the info.



How does this get clarified? Sorry for straying so far off topic.

Depends on the aution, but if you have the strong variant, you will
bid again, usually you will raise 3NT to 4NT (partner will usually
raise 2NT to 3NT), or you bid 4NT / 5M (as long as you play 5M in
the seq. as quatitative invite - which is not common, but not uncommon
either), if partner bids 4M over your 2NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[MrAce]

Responder promised 4♠.

About the arguments whether we shd start with 1♠ or 2♦, they both have up and down sides.

Responding 1♠ : Will have hard time to set trumps and make a forcing bid at the same time if pd rebids 2♥, but will definetely know pd has 6♥ on 2♥ bid.

Responding 2♦: Will not have the issue of creating a forcing auction since already made a gf respond, however will not be sure if opener really has 6 cards ♥ or not. At least not for another round.

Also, just an idea, not that i love it but...

1♥--1♠

2♥--4♣ can be used as splinter in either minor(a relay asks), and 4♦ can be used to make a forcing ♥ raise. This will allow 3m bids for natural or 3 NT purposes. Of course assuming 3♠ would be forcing, which is not the case for most people, unless they play 1♥--2♠ as invitational 6 cards.

[cherdano]

P_Marlowe, on 2011-June-07, 09:57, said:

Ok - what do you bid, after opener bids 3H?
And what add. information have you got, that makes now all the difference?

What do I know? Maybe responder was always bidding the small slam opposite enough keycards, but would be happy to try for grand in case opener jumped to 4♥. Maybe he has weak trumps support and thinks now that opener rebid 3♥ the odds are reasonable that his hearts are good enough. Maybe he wanted to try for grand opposite enough keycards, but wanted to be more careful in case there is a 3rd round spade loser. Maybe responder has ♣Kx and was considering protecting his king with 6NT in stead of 6♥ if there are enough keycards and opener doesn't have a club stop. Maybe he wanted to show his diamond side suit so that opener can judge his cards well for grand.

Meanwhile, responder could try for slam by bidding 4♣ over 3♥, which is a forcing heart raise.

Anyway, if you are telling me that with 4=2=4=3, the only way to invite slam over 2♥ is bidding 5♥, then I would suggest that this methods are suboptimal.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-07, 08:57, said:

I cannot disagree with the exact wording of your post but I would be quick to amend that a 2♦ bid followed by a 2♠ rebid surely does promise 5 diamonds in "bog-standard 2/1".

Personally, I very much prefer that 2♦ promise 5+ diamonds regardless of the number of spades held.

When there is a 1H open, I have Opener "tell" if he has 4 cards ♠ as well ... with a minimum or w/"extras" ( 15+hcp ).... after a 2/1 GF ( 2D! or 2C! ) .
[ You may have seen me post my gadget before... ad nauseum ] .

This makes moot the point of Responder showing his ♠ holding.

I too, prefer the 2/1 suit to be 5+ cards, but it puts too much pressure on Responder.
What if Responder has a GF hand, w/NO 4 cards ♠, NO 5 card minor, and NO 4 cards ♥ ?
What do you respond after a 1H open ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

P_Marlowe said: " The 2NT rebid by opener is quite often played as mixed range, 12-14 or 18-19."

Quote

name='Vampyr' timestamp='1307461977' post='552125']
Thanks for the info.
How does this get clarified? Sorry for straying so far off topic.

1M - 2m! ( 2/1 GF )
2NT = 12-14 or 18,19 ... With the 18,19 hand, Opener will bid above 3NT

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Just one suggestion, how to solve responders problem -

The problem responder has, is to find out,

#1 how many spades p has
#2 Does opener have a min for his min opener or a max for his min opener, translating this to
HCP, has opener 12-13 or 14-15 for his opening bid.

One solution is to play 3C in the sequence

1H - 1S
2H - 3C

as some kind of NMF / 3rd suit forcing.

The purpose of NMF / 3 suit forcing is to find answers to the question raised under #1 and #2.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

Cherdano said it all.

[PCH]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-07, 07:02, said:

Maybe you should have asked them their second bid, as well.

And you definitely ought to use less formatting in your posts.

[PCH]

I am hapy with the formating, very hapy makes it clear

[Hanoi5]

1♠ promises 4 spades, that's standard. The thing is that when responder bids 3♦ it is normal to expect him to have more spades than diamonds (or maybe the same number, usually 5-5).

Is 5♣ 0-3 KC? Then what's the problem with 6NT? Is it 1-4? Then it's OK to play 5♥.

I think with this powerful hand responder can KC over 2♥, maybe even cue-bid with 4♣ if s/he wants to be more scientific. I'm not a fan of the 3♦ bid.

[G_R__E_G]

I just want to go on record as saying that I think if you're playing 2/1, starting with any other response than 1♠ is crazy chicken. Feel free to up vote/down vote accordingly.

PS and obviously it only promises 4. As many have said, it's the 3♦ bid that increases the likelyhood of it being more than 4.

[jjbrr]

As usual I'm late to the party and I didn't read a lot of the thread, but with 4243 shape and a game forcing hand it's very good to bid 2♦ (or 2♣ if you play that it can be either a balanced hand or a natural ♣ suit) instead of 1♠ at your first turn to bid in a 2/1 system.

It seems, OP, that you instinctively realized that the auction 1♥-1♠; 2♥- 3 anything is not a really great auction. You're right. Also, this auction promises 5♠, but I suspect most people don't realize it.

[jjbrr]

G_R__E_G, on 2011-June-13, 09:28, said:

I just want to go on record as saying that I think if you're playing 2/1, starting with any other response than 1♠ is crazy chicken.

No.