[jh51]

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I was North on this hand.

East led a club to West's Ace. West returned a heart to East's Ace. East exidted with a club, won by North. The contract was made when the I got the 2-2 ♠ split.

I did not feel that South's hand was quite worth a slam try as it was questionable to count the K♦ at full value and as a singleton. (I think she also counted added points for ♠ length and the doubleton ♥.

Without the keycard ask, we are in 4♠ and there is no double. I worry a lot less about the contract and can take 12 tricks if West does not find the heart shift. (He said he considered returning a club in case East had led a singleton. Without the lead directing double, that might be more likely.)

Am I too close to this to judge accurately, or should partner have been satisfied with just bidding game?

[Phil]

4N is an overbid with the weak trump and ♦K singleton, but its reasonable, if mildly aggressive to suggest slam with 4♣. There are many North hands where slam is cold, and many more where slam is good. North would cue the ♦A, and later take over with 4N with the great trump. The hands don't mesh that well, but when you have a hand with short suit honors that isn't unusual.

You never want to get to the 5 level if you can avoid it, but here I think its kind of unlucky that you are off 2 keys + the trump Q. B/Is tend to underbid, not overbid, and I think they need to try for these slams when its close.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

jh51, on 2011-June-03, 13:47, said:

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You can "test the waters" with a 4C cuebid after the 3S superaccept.
When Opener cuebids 4D, you know your stiff ♦K has full value.

[Cyberyeti]

Difficult hand Kxxx, Axxx, Axx, Ax opposite is a fine slam, and might well make 7 if trumps are 2-2, the problem here is that partner has a maximum but is short of aces. Simple cue bidding may not help diagnose this in time if you cue firsts and seconds, but I think you should have a go with 4♣ then sign off in 4♠ over 4♦. Partner should then realise if he has a lot of key cards that his hand is worth proceeding with.

[kenrexford]

IMO, the worst mistake people make is leaping to RKCB innecessarily. Responder has lots of space to explore slam before launching into RKCB, and that sometimes answers the questions.

The key issue, however, is in reaching definite understandings as to what calls mean when seeking slam. As a general rule, some sort of cuebidding often is used, whether Aces-first or "Italian." Either may have helped tremedously.

Take Aces First cuebidding. Using this method, Responder has no Aces to cuebid, except in trumps. Many use 3NT as a cue of the trump Ace when using this method. This would lead to the following start:

1NT-2♥(transfer)
3♠(max 4-piece)-3NT(trump Ace, slam interest)
4♦(diamond Ace, but not the club Ace)...

This already suggests caution. Responder next bids 4♠ to deny the heart Ace. The slam interest message is not revoked -- Responder simply notes the lack of the heart Ace (and that the club Ace being missing probably troubles him -- otherwise he'd bid 4NT himself). Opener, lacking the heart Ace also, should pass.

How about Italian-style?

Here, Responder often will have 3NT available as "serious slam interest," showing no specific control but just slam interest. Suppose Responder is aggressive. Opener will bypass 4♣, again, because he has no control there (no Ace or King). Opener will instead bid 4♦. Responder, having shown serious slam interest, is caught in a problem, because he has the club control but does not have a heart control. But, "Last Train" kicks in -- he bids 4♥! The last possible cue, after bidding serious 3NT, shows possession of any control denied by partner (here, clubs) but insufficient info to commit to slam. Opener might judge to back out.

If Responder is more timid, he makes a courtesy cue instead. This is a bypass of 3NT (meaning, non-serious, or mildly slam oriented). He would cue 4♣, as others have mentioned. Opener might take a stab with a 4♦ cue, and Responder might then sign off, deying the heart control but not cancelling the "I'm interested" message. Opener might respect that.

The point of all this, however, is that either Responder or Opener might be too aggressive later anyway. This happens. Judgement fails at times. But, asking questions along the way often gives you a chance to stop early. Suppose, for instance, that Opener had the club ace (great card) but lacked any heart control. Some form of cuebidding might allow a stop because no one has a heart control, whereas RKCB would launch this into slam.

Similarly, if Opener had the same exact hand, but Responder's club King was the Queen and the hearts A-x, a "better hand" perhaps, the club hole would likely be found, again allowing a stop where RKCB would not.

[Phil]

kenrexford, on 2011-June-03, 17:47, said:

IMO, the worst mistake people make is leaping to RKCB innecessarily. Responder has lots of space to explore slam before launching into RKCB, and that sometimes answers the questions.

The key issue, however, is in reaching definite understandings as to what calls mean when seeking slam. As a general rule, some sort of cuebidding often is used, whether Aces-first or "Italian." Either may have helped tremedously.

Take Aces First cuebidding. Using this method, Responder has no Aces to cuebid, except in trumps. Many use 3NT as a cue of the trump Ace when using this method. This would lead to the following start:

1NT-2♥(transfer)
3♠(max 4-piece)-3NT(trump Ace, slam interest)
4♦(diamond Ace, but not the club Ace)...

This already suggests caution. Responder next bids 4♠ to deny the heart Ace. The slam interest message is not revoked -- Responder simply notes the lack of the heart Ace (and that the club Ace being missing probably troubles him -- otherwise he'd bid 4NT himself). Opener, lacking the heart Ace also, should pass.

How about Italian-style?

Here, Responder often will have 3NT available as "serious slam interest," showing no specific control but just slam interest. Suppose Responder is aggressive. Opener will bypass 4♣, again, because he has no control there (no Ace or King). Opener will instead bid 4♦. Responder, having shown serious slam interest, is caught in a problem, because he has the club control but does not have a heart control. But, "Last Train" kicks in -- he bids 4♥! The last possible cue, after bidding serious 3NT, shows possession of any control denied by partner (here, clubs) but insufficient info to commit to slam. Opener might judge to back out.

If Responder is more timid, he makes a courtesy cue instead. This is a bypass of 3NT (meaning, non-serious, or mildly slam oriented). He would cue 4♣, as others have mentioned. Opener might take a stab with a 4♦ cue, and Responder might then sign off, deying the heart control but not cancelling the "I'm interested" message. Opener might respect that.

The point of all this, however, is that either Responder or Opener might be too aggressive later anyway. This happens. Judgement fails at times. But, asking questions along the way often gives you a chance to stop early. Suppose, for instance, that Opener had the club ace (great card) but lacked any heart control. Some form of cuebidding might allow a stop because no one has a heart control, whereas RKCB would launch this into slam.

Similarly, if Opener had the same exact hand, but Responder's club King was the Queen and the hearts A-x, a "better hand" perhaps, the club hole would likely be found, again allowing a stop where RKCB would not.

Wow, brilliant stuff Ken.

You noticed this was the BI, right?

[Mbodell]

jh51, on 2011-June-03, 13:47, said:

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I did not feel that South's hand was quite worth a slam try as it was questionable to count the K♦ at full value and as a singleton. (I think she also counted added points for ♠ length and the doubleton ♥.

I think South is worth a slam try, but 4nt is the wrong way to go. Apart from getting too high imagine partners hand is the perfectly lovely 17 point super accept:

KQxx xxx AQxx AQ

Now over 4nt you'll hear 3 key cards and when you ask about the Q you'll be in 6 off two heart tricks (if the opponents find the lead). Not the end of the world by any means, but not great.

Compare it to:

KQxx Axx Axxx Ax

This is also a super accept and here 7 is quite good.

The super-accept by partner has taken away some of your room but makes you have to explore for slam. What you really need is the heart cue. If you play 1st or second round cues (which I think is best) then a simple 4♣ over 3♠ is great and you'll bid 4♠ over 4♦ (over which partner will bid on with hearts stopped but pass without a top heart card) but can key card over 4♥ (knowing 7 is out of the picture but 6 might well be good). On these two hands you'll still end up at the 5 level.

If a simulation showed partner super accepting with any 17 hcp with 4 spades or 16 hcp with 4 spades and 3kc or 2kc+q I'm pretty sure a simulation would have 6 spades making often enough to be well worth exploring (I wouldn't be surprised if it made nearly half the time), and I would be surprised if 5 spades went down much more than 5-10% of the time.