[gwnn]

I assumed 3♦ just denies a 5cM in my post and that responder doesn't bid 3♣ with 4-4 in majors.

[Free]

gwnn, on 2011-June-01, 06:48, said:

I assumed 3♦ just denies a 5cM in my post and that responder doesn't bid 3♣ with 4-4 in majors.

In that case you're absolutely right

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

missing from your description is, if 2C is inv.+ Stayman, or if it is Garbage / Crawling Stayman.

This has influences on the meaning of the seq.

1NT - 2D
2H - 2S

and the meaning of

1NT - 2H
2S - 3H

When you play Stayman French Style, i.e. with 54 in the majors you always go via Stayman, you can
you use the above sequences as showing 5-5 in the major, making a special bid to show this handtype
obsolete.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Vampyr]

JLOGIC, on 2011-June-01, 03:52, said:

That being said, puppet sometimes loses when they can double an artificial 3M bid, and sometimes lets the defense know that opener has a 5 card major rather than the 4+ they'd know over no stayman.

This is one reason for, if you wish to use 3♣ as 5-card Stayman, not playing puppet.

[gwnn]

Vampyr: I'm a little confused by this usage. Does "puppet" mean that you bid the major you don't have? I never heard of that but maybe it does. I just thought puppet stayman=5-card stayman.

[bluecalm]

Where is invite to 3NT without 4M ? I can understand not using it all, putting it into 2♣ is bad though (because you give away all the info and you will lose more because of it than you will gain from being able to play 2NT).
My favorite structure is:
2NT = natural
3♣ = diamonds
3♦ = diamonds, invite to game
5-4majors are in stayman and then 3♦ asking for major 3's which is much better than Smolen (because you are never in 5-2 fit at 4 level even if 1NT opener is 2-2-(4-5). This is all good if you don't care about finding 5-3 major fits. If you do (which probably you should if you open 5M-3-3-2) then I would play the same structure with the following changes:

2♠ = clubs or invite to 3NT (bad, but not as bad as putting it into stayman)
2NT = diamonds
3♣ = puppet
3♦ = diamonds, invite to game (this way 2NT - 3♣ is a hand which want's to be in 3nt opposite AQxxxx/KQxxxx)

Also imo:
1NT - 2♣
2♦ - 3♥/3♠ should be shortness and 3♦ should ask for major 3 with 3♣ being some kind of slammish ask;

[BillHiggin]

A swap of 'trans to ♣ then 3♦' and 3♦ from AMBRA:
'trans to ♣ then 3♦' = both minors GF then 3♥ asks for shortness
3♦ = GF long in one minor, short in the other then 3♥ asks which (3♠ = long ♣, 3N+ = long ♦)

The swap ensures that transfer to ♣ is not done on a ♣ shortness.

This is a bit more complex than I really prefer, but the idea itself seems reasonable and this topic seems as good a place as any for mentioning it.

[mgoetze]

gwnn, on 2011-June-02, 04:18, said:

Vampyr: I'm a little confused by this usage. Does "puppet" mean that you bid the major you don't have? I never heard of that but maybe it does. I just thought puppet stayman=5-card stayman.

I thought standard puppet is to bid 3♦ with a 4-card major and 3NT without one. That's obviously more useful over 2NT than it would be over 1NT with normal Stayman also available, though.

bluecalm, on 2011-June-02, 07:06, said:

Where is invite to 3NT without 4M ? I can understand not using it all, putting it into 2♣ is bad though (because you give away all the info and you will lose more because of it than you will gain from being able to play 2NT).

Well, I think discussing everything in one thread is a bit much. Obviously, as Marlowe pointed out, the rest of the structure has influence on which hands you need to be able to show here, but my idea was people would just tell us about their favourite use of these bids, most of us realising that it means you need to put the other hands in somewhere else.

Anyway, invite without 4M via Stayman can't be quite as horrible as you make it out to be, I think quite a few people are using it successfully. In some rare cases it loses, that is true.

bluecalm, on 2011-June-02, 07:06, said:

5-4majors are in stayman and then 3♦ asking for major 3's which is much better than Smolen (because you are never in 5-2 fit at 4 level even if 1NT opener is 2-2-(4-5).

I must be missing something about Smolen. How does 1NT-2♣-2♦-3♥-3NT or 1NT-2♣-2♦-3♠-3NT put you in a 5-2 fit at the 4 level? It seems you are playing 3NT instead.
(As a side note, I think people not playing Polish Club worry less about 22(45) hands in 1NT than those who are...)

[Lurpoa]

mgoetze, on 2011-May-31, 13:58, said:

Given a pretty standardish structure of NT responses:

2♣ Stayman
2♦ Transfer to hearts
2♥ Transfer to spades
2♠ Transfer to clubs
2NT Transfer to diamonds
3♥ 31(45)
3♠ 13(45)
3NT To play
4♦ Transfer to hearts
4♥ Transfer to spades

and that 5-card major 5332s in range are systematically opened 1NT, what would you prefer to use 3♣, 3♦ and 4♣ as?

(I'm interested in 14-16 but go ahead and pretend it's 15-17.)

I do not think there are any should be's. All that is important is that your answers are compatible with each other, and that your partner has the same agreements.
All goes, as long as you are comfortable with it.

[Vampyr]

mgoetze, on 2011-June-02, 08:19, said:

I thought standard puppet is to bid 3♦ with a 4-card major and 3NT without one. That's obviously more useful over 2NT than it would be over 1NT with normal Stayman also available, though.

I had thought that puppet mwant when you the major you don't have, but I might be wrong.

[Mbodell]

Vampyr, on 2011-June-02, 23:28, said:

I had thought that puppet mwant when you the major you don't have, but I might be wrong.

That is only after:

3♣(puppet) - 3♦(no 5M, at least 1 4M)
3M (I have 4 of oM and let you pick between 4oM and 3nt)

[semeai]

awm, on 2011-May-31, 14:22, said:

(1) You need a way to show an invite with 5/5 majors, assuming 2♥...3♥ is forcing.

What do you use 1NT-2♦; 2♥-2♠ for?

I've played this as 5-5 GF+ with 2♥..3♥ as INV. I've also just given up the invite and played this as 5-5 slammish with 2♥..3♥ GF and don't recall it ever mattering.

As I write this it occurs to me that it's harder to show 4♠-5+♥ slammish than 5+♠-4♥ slammish because the Smolen sequence 1NT-2♣;2♦-3♥ allows for 3♠ by opener, but 1NT-2♣;2♦-3♠ leaves little room. It could then be best to use 1NT-2♦;2♥-2♠ as 4♠-5+♥ slammish, or some larger collection of hands including these. Does anyone play this?