[jillybean]

I picked up this approach of bidding 1♠ with only 4 after 1m (1♥) from Ben when we played in Orlando. I like it, I find it a lot easier
to picture partners hand after 1m (1♥) X.

I am playing it with my regular partner but other than that, there is a lot of resistance to it here. I can say I like it but I haven't had much experience with it. Could someone please list the benefits so I can sound somewhat like I know what I'm talking about when I discuss it with other partners?

[aguahombre]

 jillybean, on 2011-May-27, 18:05, said:

I picked up this approach of bidding 1♠ with only 4 after 1m (1♥)from Ben in Orlando. I like it, I find it a lot easier
to picture partners hand after 1m (1♥) X.

I am playing it with my regular partner but other than that, there is a lot of resistance to it here. I can say I like it but I haven't had much experience with it. Could someone please list the benefits so I can sound somewhat like I know what I'm talking about when I discuss it with other partners?

First, the downside: people like to distinguish between having 5+ spades and 4 only spades when the auction is going competitive. I like that, too, but give the benefit up because;

There are many hands which wanted to respond 1NT or more NT but don't have a heart stop, wanted to respond 1H with 4 small and don't like bidding 1NT, or have length in the other minor and otherwise would have an uncomfortable response, were it not for the 1H interference. These are the hands which gain from double denying spades (or 1 spade denying spades, as some play it).

[awm]

Previous thread about this

[jillybean]

Thanks, great explanation.

[JLOGIC]

If you're going to do this you should play X is the one that shows spades, and 1S is the one that denies spades, and it's not even close.

[jillybean]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-May-27, 23:40, said:

If you're going to do this you should play X is the one that shows spades, and 1S is the one that denies spades, and it's not even close.

why?

[JLOGIC]

Mainly because it lets opener play spades when you have a fit which gets the overcaller on lead which is often important, and also because if it goes 1m 1H X p, opener can now bid 1S to show 3 so it makes finding 5-3 fits easy (and on that note if RHO bids, opener can make a support double still so finding 5-3 fits is easy unless RHO preempts heavily). If you play 1S shows spades then if RHO passes, opener will have to bid 1N a lot with 3 spades and a 5-3 fit might be missed (or opener might raise with 3 and get to a 4-3 fit instead of 1N). Basically you make your 1S bid much more useful over the double, if responder Xed to deny spades then 1S natural is not that useful anymore (yes it might be helpful, but on average it will be less useful than 1S showing 3 over a X showing 4+ spades).

[jillybean]

So 1♠ denies 4 spades and double shows 4 or 5 ♠'s.
After 1m (1♥) X, if opener bids 1♠ with 3 will she always jump to 2♠ holding 4?

Thanks Justin, I like it.

[aguahombre]

 jillybean, on 2011-May-28, 07:07, said:

So 1♠ denies 4 spades and double shows 4 or 5 ♠'s.
After 1m (1♥) X, if opener bids 1♠ with 3 will she always jump to 2♠ holding 4?

Not answering for Justin, but Billy Miller says yes, in a recent ACBL Bulletin article. It's like pretending partner bid 1S in response to the opening. With 3 of them, you would love to have an insufficient 1S rebid to show just 3; with the double showing 4+, you can do it legally; and with 4 you can pretend you are merely raising to 2S.

[han]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-May-27, 23:40, said:

If you're going to do this you should play X is the one that shows spades, and 1S is the one that denies spades, and it's not even close.

I'd echo this, and add that I like 2H = 6+ spades and 2S = 6 spades weak as well. Then double is 4-5 spades.

Perhaps the wrong forum for that, I would certainly not recommend this to inexperienced players.

[jillybean]

 han, on 2011-May-28, 11:52, said:

I'd echo this, and add that I like 2H = 6+ spades and 2S = 6 spades weak as well. Then double is 4-5 spades.

Perhaps the wrong forum for that, I would certainly not recommend this to inexperienced players.

Thanks, we will try it.

[Gerben42]

Still the convention comes with a warning - 1♠ SOUNDS natural!

[jillybean]

 Gerben42, on 2011-May-29, 06:01, said:

Still the convention comes with a warning - 1♠ SOUNDS natural!

Sure it does and I expect we will have a few forgets but I think we are up for the challenge.

[han]

 jillybean, on 2011-May-29, 00:36, said:

Thanks, we will try it.

If you do, you should also agree on your minor suit raises, as you can't use 2H for that anymore.

[BunnyGo]

Are there any issues with GCC playing these agreements? I know that playing 1♠ and 1NT switched in response to a 1♥ opening is not allowed, and this sounds similar.

[JLOGIC]

A few years ago I had a director ruling against me when I bid 1S in the national fast pairs (which I believe is GCC since it's "fast"), so unless something has changed since then then it is probably not legal in GCC.

[han]

Whoops yes, it's GCC illegal. Just like transfer Walsh and transfers in competition, correct? My partner and I would have a hard time playing in GCC events, nevermind that we also play Multi and Muiderberg.

[jillybean]

Bummer. I guess that leaves us with 1m (1♥) 1♠ =4or5
Why wouldn't this be allowed, it seems overly restrictive.

Or, perhaps if my intentions are good I can use it.

[Free]

 jillybean, on 2011-May-28, 07:07, said:

So 1♠ denies 4 spades and double shows 4 or 5 ♠'s.
After 1m (1♥) X, if opener bids 1♠ with 3 will she always jump to 2♠ holding 4?

Thanks Justin, I like it.

That's how I play it for the reasons stated above. I'm very happy with it.

Opener indeed jumps with a 4 card support, it's like the auction would go 1m-(1♥)-1♠*-2♠ (*=4+♠) but with the certainty that opener didn't support on a 3 card with no alternative rebid.

[Fluffy]

 han, on 2011-May-28, 11:52, said:

I'd echo this, and add that I like 2H = 6+ spades and 2S = 6 spades weak as well. Then double is 4-5 spades.

Perhaps the wrong forum for that, I would certainly not recommend this to inexperienced players.

I have read this before, perhaps from you also. But I still wonder what do you do with strong hands with support.