[Yzerman]

After posting/replying/reading most of the posts on this site I have noticed that there is a continuation of a prevailing theme among bridge players, egomania.  This is manifested on BBO as witnessed by the disproportianate amount of self-proclaimed "experts" to other skill levels.

What is an "expert"?

My definition of expert is as follows;

* An expert is a person that has enough EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE of the game such that others can expand bridge ability from direct teaching/mentoring or kibitzing.

So what are you if you are not an "expert"?  If you are not an expert you fall into two categories, those that wish to learn more about the game and those that dont.  There is nothing wrong with not wanting to better ones self at the game, those persons are generally social or kitchen players.

I think that there should be another skill level within BBO, and that skill level is "student".  This skill level would allow persons to not have to designate themselves as "novice" or "beginner" for the sake of being shunned, but rather can designate themselves as "students" denoting that they have an interest in learning more about the game.  For this reason, a real "expert" should be willing to play with a "student" because a student has explicity expressed his desire to learn the game.

Those that are just interested in playing socially, can denote themselves as the appropriate skill level.  Then social players can play socially with everyone knowing that those players are not interested in "table lessons" or constructive criticism.

This same logic should be applied to some extent on this bulletin board as well.  There are obviously some persons here with the intent of expanding bridge knowledge in general, and others with the intent of promoting their own ego.  Some persons use this site for constructive discussion and/or debate of bridge while others are here to prove they are right and others wrong.

As an idea to perhaps promote those persons that are interested in making the game better, and acknowledging those that they have knowledge/experience to share (whether while playing or discussing);

* Anonymous evaluation amongst members.

This idea is simply food for though, knowing that such a system could be more harmful than helpful.  One idea is to just allow members/peers to acknowledge persons that are worthy of watching or discussing bridge and NOT to allow negative feedback of others.

* Why is this important (in my opinion)?

Because there are people that are interested in learning but they dont know how to learn or who to approach.  Perhaps they are uncomfortable asking a "star" or maybe they are not familiar with some of the more experienced/knowledgeable members.  Example, have you ever witnessed someone make what appears to be an unordinary play/bid/defense but you feel uncomfortable asking other "why".  Having a set of persons handy at any given time, might be an improved way of promoting bridge, promoting BBO, and to some extent promoting humility.

[hallway]

Ah, now Yzerman, you have hit upon my most fervent wish.  

Mayhap, down the track aways when Fred and his Team have got the enormous task of getting the site set up for  Tournament Play and after they have had a well deserved break !!   the Skill Level List will get modified.

We (the BLN's) have something of a dilemma with the existing List -  I myself am trapped in a Void .

If I call myself a Beginner (designated as someone who has been playing for less than a year )I am telling a lie - It is well over a year  (almost two !! ) since I started to play.  

So I have to call myself a Novice (which on the list comes before beginner   )  On a good day I have the nerve to think I am better than that  LOL  

Fred at one time very kindly suggested that I should use Intermediate . It was a temptation  :    but an Intermediate without a Defense  !?! -  could create work for the Yellows !!!

Still there is now some hope THANK YOU Fred for the [glow=red,2,300]Learn to Play Part 2[/glow] you gave all the BNLs / INTs to download this week.     Just the very thing .   (By the by, Fred,  I spotted the Diamond Lead - talk about a flash of inspiration I'm still 'walking' on air  ;D )

I like STUDENT    -   yes I would be very happy to select Student  .

[inquiry]

I also believe the self description of student would be a nice addition. I have been a student for decades.

ben

[Laird]

Yzerman has identified an important area of concern and yet I believe that identification of student level is only half the solution ...

The old way in industry regarding training of new starts  was to have the recruit "sit next to Nellie" to learn the skills involved. This was often pooh poohed as a bad way of training but it really depended on who Nellie was. This is the point I am trying to make - as well as identifying the student, the mentor has also to be identified as someone who not only has the required skill but also the ability, patience and empathy to pass on his/ her knowledge in a meaningful and fun way.
I would suggest that any such mentors are identified as a ( blue,pink,tartan) doesnt matter too much. A student would then know that here was a person who would be able to help them progress in the game and to be approachable.
Skills to include natural and scientific systems with progression up some kind of scale and as a stimulus to all "voids" age not to be a barrier to student status .

Kind regards

John

[keylime]

How about a skill level of "teacher" to balance out the "student" label? Or better yet, for those that are participating in Dawn's program, "mentor"?

[Rhutobello]

Just giving my vote to the "student" skill level! Much better then Inte..., because just as Hallway I feel that I don't belong there, but on the other hand I am not a beginner in the sence of the word, even if that is what my card show:)

[Laird]

[quote author=Yzerman .

* An expert is a person that has enough EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE of the game such that others can expand bridge ability from direct teaching/mentoring or kibitzing.

Because there are people that are interested in learning but they dont know how to learn or who to approach.

 Perhaps they are uncomfortable asking a "star" or maybe they are not familiar with some of the more experienced / knowledgeable members.  

I would like to explore these areas of Yzerman's posting...

Definition of Expert....Fred, Shep, Cascade, Rado I would say are experts who would meet your definition and yet I know from direct experience that there are many more on BBO who achieve similar results purely by their friendly approach to the game.... this is maybe a definition that needs exploring.
A group identified as 'friendlies' not high flying experts but people who are approachable and have some worthwhile experience of playing the game to pass on.
The Yellows I'm sure are very fine people and approachable but they are awfully like policemen to me!
Star players - iust like the ones in the sky, nice to watch!
As people gain confidence not only with the experience of playing on line but in playing better bridge then perhaps they can be passed up the line to others, such as those Yzerman suggests who can help them in their quest to improve as a 'student'.
I know that I have marked a lot of people as friendlies and they dont even know.  I recognised that they had an empathy with my attempts to gain experience of this new medium for playing bridge but I would be very reluctant to impose my limited skills on them very often.
We see in the answers to the postings how willing many are to try to give an honest answer to requests for information... are the people who make up BBO not just very special.
Kind regards
John

[jjsb]

[quote][quote]

[Laird]

Apologies to all YELLOWS.... If I offended anyone with my remarks then I state here now, this was not my intention.   :-[
I was trying to show that for some people new to bridge on line that approaching people designated to preserve the good standing of BBO may be a barrier. I know from personal experience that Yellows do a very fine job and have always been helpful to me. However I even had second thoughts about approaching a Yellow with my problem. Perhaps its a Scottish cultural thing.... I hope I do not offend fellow Scots with that statement... you had to tread softly when the police were about but they were handy if you were lost right enough  

Kind regards

John

[Wayne]

The would only need two levels:

Student and
Non-Student

Wayne

[Laird]

I'm sure few would disagree with Wayne's succinct posting regarding student/ non-student.
Yzerman, Inquiry, The- Hog, Wayne and even Fred himself. I immagine would be willing to call themselves students of bridge ie someone still interested in learning about or exploring the many facets of this fascinating game.
Yet we know by their record, quality of posting etc that they have much more to offer the bridge community and we feel confident that the information given is of the highest quality.
Where does that leave the Hallway, Rhutobello and Lairds' of the bridge community.... we too are students but way down at the other end of the pecking order. We still have to recognise those who are good teachers/ mentors some way and not be at the mercy of self - proclaimed experts as Yzerman called them. When or how do we recognise a good teacher/ mentor if they are not pointed out to us.
Also ...maybe we should have a switch that can be pressed when we want to be studious or when we want to be social. In that way experts will keep well away and allow the students ' to be daft and stupid if necessary' as part of the learning process.

kind regards
John

[Rhutobello]

Agree with you John

In my opinion are "beginner and novice" good for the purpose to give message that ones ability is not up to"average" in playing and betting.

Let say I as player start to get hold of those two thing, and will put Intem.. on my card. Will you as another Intem.. assume that I can most conv and so on???

It is the lack of knowledge to most conv, that makes me want something between beginner and Inte.. and there "student" kan be nice, because it will give my pick up partner a message that "he might be good,or bad,he know how to play, but I can't throw all my babies on him, whitout asking him first" ;D

Why not just jump to inte... and be finish with it?

Well with the word "student", you give the message that you are open for constructive comment, as an Intem I might be insulted from the same comment
It also prevent my pick up partner to sit judge, and say that I must go back down to novice, because of a stupid mistake that we both are to blame, and last but best, I feel that that is my title, I love the game, but want to learn so much much more 8)

Until the option arrive, I have promoted myself to Intem.........Please don't shoot me : ;D ;D

[Cave_Draco]

The whole question of level is muddy waters; if you can imagine a Dragon riding a bicycle... A 20-year gap and... I don't play nearly as well as I used to, :-[.

Then there are the divisions:
1) Bidding... SAYC? Beginner, not student because I only play it when I must, ;D: Precision? Intermediate, I used to play against it!
2) Play... An Intermediate counts the cards, a Novice doesn't and a Beginner recognises the value but hasn't acquired the habit.

If there were an, apologies to oldfogey, an Old_Fogey category... ME, ME, ME, .

[mishovnbg]

"* An expert is a person that has enough EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE of the game such that others can expand bridge ability from direct teaching/mentoring or kibitzing."
I like this definition but in it must be include very important addition: ... " and can REALTIME use it". At tournament u have only 7-8 minutes for board normally...
Student, No lessons, Teacher, Social ... must be additional subskill level, i think.

[Rhutobello]

Maybe we have different opinion on what the label"student" mean

What I put into it, is a person who is better than a beginner, even if a beginner also are a Student

In my opinion it isen't the main thing to recive lessons (that we recive in playing, beeing defeated, win, and s.o), but the willingness to recive constructive comments on what we do. The label itself will prevent nasty comments from people who always belive other is to blame, for who can blame one there are willing to learn? :

As many of our expert players (JG;Rado..) has said, the only way to learn is to be as near a bridge table as you can, then the rest is up to your own imagnation and the abillity to think :

(the quotation was a bit free from my own mind, hopefully not more then you can a good laugh on it ;D ;D ;D)

[hallway]

This Skill Level question is surely a vexed issue

Yzerman - "Student" sounded good but Ben blew that notion 'out of the water' 13 April :'( - I guess he's right, one is forever a 'student' no matter how skilled one becomes.

Really and truly though the current 'lower' (as in less skilled) levels DO need to be redefined

Private - what is that , why is that ?? Everyone can be as private as they please with no name, no contact, no country BUT surely if their intention when joining a Bridge site is to play Bridge they have a duty to their fellow players to give some indication of their bridge playing ability. :
Please Fred - do away with that designation and use the free field for me and my fellow 'voids'

You could then have:
Novice - new to bridge, keen to learn
Beginner - have attended lessons, been playing for less than 2 years.
[glow=]JUNIOR[/glow] - enjoying the game, teach me more

leave the rest as is (I'll reserve comment until I get there ;D - no danger - too late she cried :'( )

[Rhutobello]

;D ;D ;D

Thanks, Hallway, for your comment on private, you hit the Bulls eye there! 8)

As for name "student"... "Junior" I myself is open for what ever comes, even if there comes nothing ;D

Until next bridge session, have a big ;D all!!

[csdenmark]

Nice to read about all those students - but more interesting I think to read a bit about what you are studying!

For those not knowing already - as a member of the proud novices I don't accept teaching/lessons during play. Such need of course to be based on log-files.


Yours Claus - csdenmark :-*

[Rhutobello]

LOL, nice Claus 8)


I think we might have some language problems here, or maybe different opinions on what to put into the meaning of the word "student" in this case.(please let us go over to Junior :)

I agree with you. Teaching with the table shall only happen when the table is marked as so, or in the training area.

Why then have a new title? Well if we just have one tittle, evryone have to find out for themselves what kind of P or O you meet. If you start giving them choises to describe themself, many will call them self exspert or adv just because they have a great ego. On the other end, you have people that want to deliver more before they use that kind of description for themself:

For what I am studying, well I follow the disussion on this site. I have just started to learn multi. The thread gave many opinions, and some nice links. I saw from your last post that you wanted discussion about partner bidding and so on. I hope you ask such question, because it will be nice to read about it ;D

Big ;D to you all!

[csdenmark]

Maybe I need to clear my last comment a bit. - I don't need such skill-information myself. My concerns are mostly whether players apply to code of conduct. - Violating code of conduct(rudeness to me or others, incognito or simply provides too silly info on their ID) causes such players to be ruled out by me for partnership. - Sorry, here I am more restrictive than BBO.

I refuse to play standard classic(sayc,2o1,acol etc.) - given up due to all too many interpretations - which means I only pick up new friends and partners via adverticing.

Of course sometimes a new partner wants to querry or teach me. Depending of my mood and health I respond to 1st one. Second time partnership is cancelled and we finish the hand and separate. First time a partner makes an insulting comment he is turned into black and partnership cancelled as well. Due to the fact I have turned chat of from enemies I hear no more from rude persons.

As I only play artificial systems misunderstandings in bidding is mostly arising when partner forgets what we are playing. Else partner wants to point out I played the cards wrongly - by that time I already know. Please note - I think all are doing their best acc. to their conditions and I therefore never comment partners doings myself.

A few times I have asked partner simply to mail me his important comments. None has ever thought their comments was that important that it was worth that effort!

In general I think the cards played ought not to be discussed during game. At the tables I play we very often have polite and lively discussions about everything else(weather, politics, beer etc.) - most feel comfortable in that way I think!

Yours Claus - csdenmark