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Doubles in a pickup partnership

#1 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 00:46

With no agreements, how is it reasonable to expect partner to interpret the following?
a)

b)

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#2 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 00:52

Takeout and takeout. Very reasonable.
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#3 User is offline   menggq 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 06:28

A) X=penalty, showed good suits and openning hcp+

B) X=takeout, showed 5 short and not bad minors.
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#4 User is offline   frank0 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 06:34

Both of them are takeout
(a)Delayed takeout double, E has strength to compete at 2 level but pass over 1C, the only possibility is E has strength in , short and has no proper bid at first round.

For example,
x
Kxxx
KJxx
AKxx
is a perfect hand for E

(b)E don't want to sell contract at 2 level, the double shows a 3-suited hand, short .
E may have
AKxxx
x
Qxxx
Kxx
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#5 User is offline   VM1973 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 08:23

Everyone agrees the second should be takeout. But I feel that the first one should be penalty. Not everyone will agree.
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#6 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 08:45

"reasonable" and "pick up partner" should not be used in the same sentence.
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#7 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 11:53

Depends entirely on how good your partner is.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#8 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 12:01

The second one being takeout seems pretty universal. I think any reasonable partner should "field" this as a takeout double.

The first one there is some difference in opinion. With a pickup partner (even one who is reasonably good) I wouldn't bet on how they play this one. Personally I like takeout, and expect that young-ish American advanced-to-expert players would tend to agree, but that's a far cry from assuming a true pickup partner will get it.
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#9 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 12:13

Thanks. I meant both as takeout, two different advanced partners kept them in (in both cases without a trump stack and with a good suit to bid), so I was wondering if thinking they'd be TO is exotic. (And yeah, self-ratings are flawed, but I still expect non-"expert" ratings to be more or less accurate)
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#10 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 12:17

All advanced players say they are experts.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#11 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-May-28, 22:02

I know two experts in real life, one self-rates as World Class (and has a star) and the other self-rates as Advanced, hence my conclusion :)
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#12 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-May-29, 08:16

Which contradicts the accurateness of advanced?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#13 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2011-June-01, 18:31

1st is clear penalty. To my mind, there is basically no hand that wants to double for takeout over 2, that couldn't over 1.

2nd t/o ainec.
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#14 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 01:02

ainec?
The reason I think the first could/should be TO is a hand with length in the red suits and some competitive potential. For instance, something like:

I wouldn't make a TO double over 1 with (too weak for its shape), but don't mind getting to the 2 level in a red suit rather than selling out to 2.
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#15 User is offline   Flameous 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 06:14

I'd take the first one as penalty without discussion. The other (maybe better) agreement is T/O of spades, ie a good opening hand with both red suits that couldn't X 1 or overcall a red suit. Because I would have overcalled almost all of these, a penalty hand is more likely.
I don't think it's good idea to X with hand like Antrax showed. It's a very dangerous spot as opps might easily have both red suits locked up. (2 bidder is 45 in minors, 1 bidder 54 in majors) I rather trust that partner can find a balancing bid in actual balancing position.
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#16 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 06:31

To me these are both 100% and obvious takeout doubles. I would expect any true intermediate or above, anywhere in the world, to know this.

This in particular baffles me:

View PostTylerE, on 2011-June-01, 18:31, said:

1st is clear penalty. To my mind, there is basically no hand that wants to double for takeout over 2, that couldn't over 1.

There are many hands with 4-4 red suits, but short in spades, that will not double 1. Perhaps you overlooked the spade bid in the auction?
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#17 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 07:00

a) penalty b) takeout
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#18 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 07:05

View PostTylerE, on 2011-June-01, 18:31, said:

1st is clear penalty. To my mind, there is basically no hand that wants to double for takeout over 2, that couldn't over 1.

Depends on your overcall style. If you overcall only on decent 5-card suits this is obviously not true. If any 5-card suit or KJxx is enough then you are right.
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#19 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 15:39

View Postbillw55, on 2011-June-02, 06:31, said:

To me these are both 100% and obvious takeout doubles. I would expect any true intermediate or above, anywhere in the world, to know this.

This in particular baffles me:


There are many hands with 4-4 red suits, but short in spades, that will not double 1. Perhaps you overlooked the spade bid in the auction?


I think doubling on most 4-4s on that auction is nuts. Opponents haven't found a fit yet. Why do WE feel an urge to declare a hand that's possibly a misfit all around?
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#20 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2011-June-02, 21:38

View PostTylerE, on 2011-June-02, 15:39, said:

I think doubling on most 4-4s on that auction is nuts. Opponents haven't found a fit yet.

I didn't say most 4-4s. I said many 4-4s. Specifically, the good ones Posted Image

Quote

Why do WE feel an urge to declare a hand that's possibly a misfit all around?

To avoid defending 2.



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