[Coelacanth]

In "Standard American" (I don't know if this is specifically addressed on the Yellow Card, but in any case the pair in question was not playing SAYC), what is the meaning of North's double on the following sequence?

---

West's 2♥ call suggested a four-card suit (support X was available). 3♥ would have been pre-emptive, so 2♥ suggests at least some values.

[hatchett]

Coelacanth, on 2011-May-23, 10:15, said:

In "Standard American" (I don't know if this is specifically addressed on the Yellow Card, but in any case the pair in question was not playing SAYC), what is the meaning of North's double on the following sequence?

---

West's 2♥ call suggested a four-card suit (support X was available). 3♥ would have been pre-emptive, so 2♥ suggests at least some values.

Most people play X by the opener as take-out here.
Support doubles are played by the opening side not the intervening side, so what you have written is a little odd. When
partner has overcalled with what is normally a 5 card suit you just raise with 3 card support. The modern style would be
to play the X of the 1NT bid as take-out, a 4225 shape would be perfect.

[Coelacanth]

hatchett, on 2011-May-23, 11:20, said:

Most people play X by the opener as take-out here.
Support doubles are played by the opening side not the intervening side, so what you have written is a little odd. When
partner has overcalled with what is normally a 5 card suit you just raise with 3 card support. The modern style would be
to play the X of the 1NT bid as take-out, a 4225 shape would be perfect.

I'm not 100% on the details of the EW agreements. I do know that W thought she was showing more than a simple competitive raise; in otherwords, she doesn't have a 7-count with 3 hearts. East is a known maniac, so West's bid shows either a 4th heart or close to limit-raise values.

[kgr]

I play that DBL by NT-bidder (S) would be penalty, DBL by his partner (N) is takeout.
Not sure if that is best

[SimonFa]

Do something intelligent partner.

And then in the post mortem when staring at a bottom score... but not that, idiot. Or if a good score, well done partner.

[Bbradley62]

SimonFa, on 2011-May-23, 16:36, said:

Do something intelligent partner.

This, showing extras.

[MrAce]

Coelacanth, on 2011-May-23, 10:15, said:

West's 2♥ call suggested a four-card suit (support X was available).

Is this the agreement or your guess ? Because DBL by overcaller's pd would not be a traditional support DBL.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

simplified speaking - low level doubles, espseically if they have found a fit are
for T/O, showing shortage in their suit.
As it is - 1NT also showed a stopper in heart, so if South decides to Pass 2Hx,
this should not be an unpleasant suprise for North, but only South knowes, how
good the supposed heart stopper really is.

Putting this together - the X showes add. values and heart shortage.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Coelacanth]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I was North and considered this a "do something intelligent" double; considering that the opponents have shown a nine-card (at least) heart fit and partner has bid a natural notrump, I could hardly have a heart stack, could I?

My hand was something like ♠AQJx ♥void ♦JT98x ♣AKT9.

South, who subsequently described my double as "100% penalty", passed holding something like ♠Txx ♥8xxx ♦A ♣Q8xxx.

We took the ♦A, 2♦ ruffs, and three top tricks in the black suits to set the contract one trick for a fine matchpoint score.

[aguahombre]

at equal nonvul you got a fine matchpoint score for +100? I would think a partscore in clubs would be normal. Probably too much baggage to make 5 clubs.

[Free]

MrAce, on 2011-May-24, 04:14, said:

Is this the agreement or your guess ? Because DBL by overcaller's pd would not be a traditional support DBL.

My thoughts exactly...

[Coelacanth]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-24, 08:14, said:

at equal nonvul you got a fine matchpoint score for +100? I would think a partscore in clubs would be normal. Probably too much baggage to make 5 clubs.

Most of the NS pairs were +50. I just re-checked and NS were vul; the only pair to do better than +100 was +950.

[aguahombre]

After the given auction up thru the 2♥ raise, our double would be about 18-19 (no 1NT opening) with a couple hearts.

2NT is, by agreement and the inference from the paragraph above, not natural. It would show pretty much what the actual opening bidder had ---responder has 4+clubs or 3 diamonds and will choose accordingly.

3C would have shown 5 of them.

[Bbradley62]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-24, 09:23, said:

After the given auction up thru the 2♥ raise, our double would be about 18-19 (no 1NT opening) with a couple hearts.

Sounds like something that comes up very rarely, if opps have 9 hearts and pard bid 1NT.

[aguahombre]

9 hearts is not always a valid assumption, even with the alleged 4-card support explanation. 4-card overcall or choice to support with 3 are possible. Or both

[awm]

Opener can't really have many hearts on this auction. Opponents have promised at least eight hearts, and responder will usually have at least three for the 1NT bid. So double being "pure penalty" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

It seems like double should be takeout with some extras, suggesting that responder can convert if he wants (say he has four good hearts) or can compete in a minor. This is pretty much what opener has, and I think responder should bid 3♣ (since his hearts are xxxx).

This is different from the auction 1♦-Pass-1NT-2♥-X, where opener could easily have a stack of hearts (and responder won't) and it makes sense for double to be penalty.

I'd suggest the following rule for auctions where I open, partner bids 1NT, and my RHO then takes a call.

(1) If it is possible for partner to hold 4(+) cards in the suit opponents have named, then my double is takeout.
(2) If it is not possible for partner to hold 4(+) cards in the suit opponents have named, then my double is penalty, and I can bid 2NT for takeout.

Thus for example: 1♠-Pass-1NT-Bid and double is takeout because partner could have any 4(+) card suit except spades.

On the other hand, 1m-Pass-1NT-2M and double is penalty because partner cannot have a 4(+) major. If I want partner to "pick a minor" (i.e. takeout) I bid 2NT.

The reasoning is that if partner would never convert a takeout double to penalties, I may as well bid 2NT for takeout instead of X. This frees up X to be penalty. However, if partner might convert a takeout double to penalties I want to give him this chance, and my takeout-oriented hand will tend to be more common than a penalty hand.

[Lurpoa]

Coelacanth, on 2011-May-23, 10:15, said:

In "Standard American" (I don't know if this is specifically addressed on the Yellow Card, but in any case the pair in question was not playing SAYC), what is the meaning of North's double on the following sequence?

---

West's 2♥ call suggested a four-card suit (support X was available). 3♥ would have been pre-emptive, so 2♥ suggests at least some values.

typically a DSIP double - penalty oriented: I have extra's (at least 3.5 DT), not neccessay trumps, your decision partner !

[xxhong]

I think the common sense meaning of the double should be penalty. Partner has made a limit bid and denies support for your suit and shows some value in opp's suit. Opp may overcall some 4 card suit and raise with 3. A general rule of penalty double from opener is that it should be a penalty double when responder has limited his hand, with a few exceptions.

Coelacanth, on 2011-May-23, 10:15, said:

In "Standard American" (I don't know if this is specifically addressed on the Yellow Card, but in any case the pair in question was not playing SAYC), what is the meaning of North's double on the following sequence?

---

West's 2♥ call suggested a four-card suit (support X was available). 3♥ would have been pre-emptive, so 2♥ suggests at least some values.

[Lurpoa]

xxhong, on 2011-May-24, 15:38, said:

I think the common sense meaning of the double should be penalty. Partner has made a limit bid and denies support for your suit and shows some value in opp's suit. Opp may overcall some 4 card suit and raise with 3. A general rule of penalty double from opener is that it should be a penalty double when responder has limited his hand, with a few exceptions.

yes ! Indeed !
when I said penalty oriented, I really meant VERY penalty oriented.
By your double you do not necessary promess trumps, just extra trick taling power, and partner should only pull it on exceptional hands.