[kayin801]

Scoring IMPs on both hands. We play a strong club system, so please note the alerts in the bidding sequences.

1)

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We actually made 7 when LHO lead the ♥A, but 6 is still very good. 3♥ wasn't really discussed fully but it looked like a good spade raise to both players. North took 4♦ as a cue, and thinking it was shortness signed off. (3NT would have been serious here, too). Assuming that the auction must be the same through 2♣ (unless you consider N to be a GF after the 1♥ overcall, where he could bid 2♣ or 2♥ to begin to show this hand), how would you reach 6?

2)

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Made 5 when the stiff ♥A was with lefty, but again, still pretty good for 4, and certainly a contract you want to be at vul at IMPs. Thoughts?

[whereagles]

Very thin slam and game. Not really easy to bid without taking a flier. Hands fit beautifully and it's not easy to gauge that.

In 1 opener has a clear sign off over 3♥, so sticking to 4 is normal, regardless of the cue mix up that followed. Responder has the magic cards when he could easily have had quite a lot of club wastage.

In 2 responder can, perhaps, count 7 losers, which is enough for game opposite a decent opener. Other than taking this rosy view, I don't see how game can be bid.

[Hanoi5]

I suppose the first one is a matter of agreement, 4♦ has to be either natural or cue-bid, but it cannot be both.

I suppose the second one is just a lucky deal, everything is perfect, North already upgraded to cue-bid and South opened a 10 HCP hand which I wouldn't.

[Cyberyeti]

First one, what's 1♣-(1♥)-3♥ ? if it's going to be interpreted as a GF, void heart and equalish lengths in the others, I'll bid that.

I would also be inclined to bid 2♥ (good raise, might find something informative out) or 4♥ (void, won't excite partner) rather than 3.

Possible continuation 1♣-1♥-X-P-1♠-2♣-2♥-P-4♣-P-4♦-P-4♥-P-5♦-P-6♠

Second one, if there's no heart loser and spades are 3-1 5♦ looks a reasonable spot the other way, but for your problem, what did 3♦ show ? and what other raises were available ? Opposite a 5 card spade, the N hand is really very good, particularly when there was no diamond raise over 3♦ so partner will be carrying a few. I think I'd have bid 4♠ over 3 at teams.

[kayin801]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-May-19, 10:34, said:

First one, what's 1♣-(1♥)-3♥ ? if it's going to be interpreted as a GF, void heart and equalish lengths in the others, I'll bid that.

I would also be inclined to bid 2♥ (good raise, might find something informative out) or 4♥ (void, won't excite partner) rather than 3.

Possible continuation 1♣-1♥-X-P-1♠-2♣-2♥-P-4♣-P-4♦-P-4♥-P-5♦-P-6♠

Second one, if there's no heart loser and spades are 3-1 5♦ looks a reasonable spot the other way, but for your problem, what did 3♦ show ? and what other raises were available ? Opposite a 5 card spade, the N hand is really very good, particularly when there was no diamond raise over 3♦ so partner will be carrying a few. I think I'd have bid 4♠ over 3 at teams.

On the first, we don't have an agreement on 3♥, I would take it as a minnish GF, flatter hand with no stopper though (though 2♥ shows that). I guess we'd prefer to keep it low so that jump is somewhat discouraged. Part of the question, though, is whether to interpret that hand as a GF or not, and then if you choose not to, how would you catch up? (Or how much do you hold back if you call it a GF?)

On the second, 3♦ was the only clear raise, though we've been discussing and think 3♥ might be better served as some sort of raise rather than a weak jump. Other bids would be natural, though I know there's also people who play 2NT as a raise here.

[Cyberyeti]

kayin801, on 2011-May-19, 13:36, said:

On the second, 3♦ was the only clear raise, though we've been discussing and think 3♥ might be better served as some sort of raise rather than a weak jump. Other bids would be natural, though I know there's also people who play 2NT as a raise here.

3♥ shouldn't be a weak jump, either a raise or a fit jump.

We play 4 card majors and a weak no trump (so if 1♠ is 4 it's a 15+ 4333), but we play 2N as a 4+ card raise to 3 or better, 3♦ as the equivalent 3 card raise, there are many other possible schemes.

[han]

Hanoi5, on 2011-May-19, 07:36, said:

I suppose the first one is a matter of agreement, 4♦ has to be either natural or cue-bid, but it cannot be both.

Agree, the 3H bid and it's explanation also doesn't speak for the partnership.

[gnasher]

The first one looks like a good hand for fit jumps. What would 3♦ over 2♣ be?

On the second one I think North should bid 4♠ over 2♦. That may make, or it may talk them into bidding 5♦ when they shouldn't, or it may prevent them saving when they should.

[Fluffy]

first one is a good hand for splinters, 4♥ over 2♣ and you will reach slam. North has a big monster.

I think south should bid 4♣ over 3♥ but I understand he was travelling mud waters.


North has to ask himself what hand might partner have that wants to try slam but has no club control and diamond shortness. I find none. Perhaps he should bid 4♥ anyway.


About second one I think I'd miss this game also.

[kayin801]

han, on 2011-May-19, 23:34, said:

Agree, the 3H bid and it's explanation also doesn't speak for the partnership.

Thank you for your extremely valuable input. I will be certain to take your comments into account!

In all seriousness, I am aware that not knowing exactly what each bid means is a problem, and I wouldn't post this if I wasn't looking for recommendations as to how to play this sort of hand. My partner and I discussed this and we didn't come to a full consensus, hence the reason for posting the hand.

Thank you to those suggesting alternate ways to bid the hands, it definitely helps a lot.

[han]

Coming to good agreements is certainly important, but perhaps even more important is bidding well with the agreements you have. Here I would never jump to 3H if I didn't know what it meant. It seems like the bidder didn't know what it was, and also didn't know how partner would take it. Not only was it a vague bid, it also took away a full level of bidding. Had north bid 2H, south could have bid an unambiguous 3D, which would clearly show diamonds, not a cuebid.

In the given auction, it seems like 4D was intended as natural and taken as a cue (perhaps even denying a club cue?). Hence Hanoi's comment was spot on. You can be insulted by his or my comment, but I cannot think of a way to say it better than Hanoi did. Both agreements are reasonable, but you cannot play both.

Given that north is so limited, I would play that the jump to 3H shows shortness, and 4D is a cue (not because the cue seems more useful, but because it fits with my general agreements). A jump to 3D would indeed be a fitbid (I wouldn't know any other useful meaning to be honest). Although this is not a typical hand for the fitbid (only 4 diamonds, no spade honor and a heart void) it should work extremely well on this deal.

[kayin801]

han, on 2011-May-21, 01:03, said:

Coming to good agreements is certainly important, but perhaps even more important is bidding well with the agreements you have. Here I would never jump to 3H if I didn't know what it meant. It seems like the bidder didn't know what it was, and also didn't know how partner would take it. Not only was it a vague bid, it also took away a full level of bidding. Had north bid 2H, south could have bid an unambiguous 3D, which would clearly show diamonds, not a cuebid.

This is a good rule, and one we usually follow. This specific hand came from online practice where my partner and I either sometimes goof around, or we make unusual bids so we have stuff to discuss later

Quote

In the given auction, it seems like 4D was intended as natural and taken as a cue (perhaps even denying a club cue?). Hence Hanoi's comment was spot on. You can be insulted by his or my comment, but I cannot think of a way to say it better than Hanoi did. Both agreements are reasonable, but you cannot play both.

Not really insulted, but sarcasm in, sarcasm out.

Quote

Given that north is so limited, I would play that the jump to 3H shows shortness, and 4D is a cue (not because the cue seems more useful, but because it fits with my general agreements). A jump to 3D would indeed be a fitbid (I wouldn't know any other useful meaning to be honest). Although this is not a typical hand for the fitbid (only 4 diamonds, no spade honor and a heart void) it should work extremely well on this deal.

Recent quote from partner: "Fit bids. Sooooo trendy it hurts." (Cause we haven't really played them, but clearly we should!)

[chasetb]

For hand 1, a jump to 4♦ might do the trick. In my partnerships (and proposed in Precision Today), this would be a Picture bid, showing 5+ Diamonds headed by an honor and 4+ card support. Of course I'm lying about the length of my minor suit, but AKTx is good enough to be 5 in my book.

For hand 2, bidding 18 HCP hands when you don't know that they fit together perfectly is losing bridge, unless it's a sacrifice. You can't bid them all.

[han]

kayin801, on 2011-May-21, 08:36, said:

Recent quote from partner: "Fit bids. Sooooo trendy it hurts." (Cause we haven't really played them, but clearly we should!)

There was a quote from Rodwell in the ETM interview that was something like" "The current trend is that almost every jump bid should show a fit. I am not convinced that this is best". Those are not his words but it is what I remember. There are some that would argue that any first-bid jump to a new suit under game in a competitive auction should be a fit bid, but I don't agree with that.

However, in this auction I wouldn't know what "natural" meaning 3D could have. Responder already showed 5-7 points and passed initially, surely he can't have a natural 3D bid.

Again, I wouldn't call this a typical 3D bid but it has a lot going for it.

[phil_20686]

On the second hand pretty sure that north just underbid. I would have just blasted game. It has many ways to win.

[benlessard]

if 3H is a splinter and 4H is a void i expect to reach 6.

No way im in game for this 1 especially with those modern light limit raise.