[OSH]

IMPS, Nv v NV
♠xxx
♥Ax
♦Qxx
♣AJTxx

♠x
♥JT98xx
♦AKx
♣Q98

You are in 4♥ after:
1♥-p-1NT-p
2♥-p-4♥-end

W leads ♠A and K, your plan?

[helium]

røff and play ♥jack take return and play ♥ to ace of lho dont have Q/K of♥singel or double, i whill play 3 times♥, and if lho have one of the missing♥honnørs, i would play ace of ♣ and hope for the K to drop.if not finness ♣

[Fluffy]

I would ask my partner not to bid game when I have minimunm opening, and he doesn´t have opening values.

[helium]

Fluffy, on Sep 16 2004, 06:09 AM, said:

I would ask my partner not to bid game when I have minimunm opening, and he doesn´t have opening values.

hehe agree:))

[luke warm]

yes, the 4H bid doesn't make a lot of sense... north was presumably prepared to bid 2H had opener bid 2D (or maybe 2nt), so even if 2h shows min with 6 trumps this hand isn't great for 4h

aside from that, i'd play a heart to the ace and a low heart.. win the return, play another heart... when the time is right i'm leading the ♣8 and letting it go.. if it wins, the ♣Q follows

[inquiry]

Not a happy hand,

I think I would try the club finess at trick three. This hand can stand two heart losers if you have no club loser. IF club finessee wins, then I will play heart ace and heart. If club finesse loses, I will ruff spade to my hand (or win diamond), and play west for doubleton heart honor, trying to hold my heart losers to one.

So plan in a nut shell....

Play clubs to discover how to play hearts.

[Flame]

inquiry, on Sep 16 2004, 09:45 AM, said:

Not a happy hand,

I think I would try the club finess at trick three. This hand can stand two heart losers if you have no club loser. IF club finessee wins, then I will play heart ace and heart. If club finesse loses, I will ruff spade to my hand (or win diamond), and play west for doubleton heart honor, trying to hold my heart losers to one.

So plan in a nut shell....

Play clubs to discover how to play hearts.

How is this better then just running the J of heart ? ot seems to me that its both safer and will make an overtrick more times.

[nikos59]

I go to the ace of hearts at trick 3 and ruff another spade. Then
cash all diamonds and then exit with a low trump from dummy.
If West has honour doubleton he is endplayed. This line has
the advantage of working when the other lines do not and it
gives you the aura of an expert.

nikos

[inquiry]

Flame, on Sep 16 2004, 10:51 AM, said:

inquiry, on Sep 16 2004, 09:45 AM, said:

Not a happy hand,

I think I would try the club finess at trick three. This hand can stand two heart losers if you have no club loser. IF club finessee wins, then I will play heart ace and heart. If club finesse loses, I will ruff spade to my hand (or win diamond), and play west for doubleton heart honor, trying to hold my heart losers to one.

So plan in a nut shell....

Play clubs to discover how to play hearts.

How is this better then just running the J of heart ? ot seems to me that its both safer and will make an overtrick more times.

Running heart jack can lose three heart tricks to singleton heart honor offside. Now, back comes a spade, you ruff again (your second ruff) so you are down to three trumps, and your LHO has high honor third left (starting with four to an honor). Now you will lose two more trumps, due to a repeated spade force.

If the club hook wins. You play heart ACE and heart, you can surive 4-1 with stiff offside. Due to spade force, you were never surviving any 4-1 split where both honors are with the four spades (well, if hand with four hearts has only 3 spades, you can not be forced, and make even if you lose to a singleton heart honor)... if the club hook wins.

Now if the club hook loses, you need to catch WEST wtih KQx, Kx, or Qx of hearts, so you forgo the heart ace play and lead the jack and let it ride if not covered.

As for overtrick, I will be so greatful to make just 10 tricks... I have no aspirations (yet) for 11. This is IMPS after all. At MP, I will not cater to a 4-1 split with stiff honor offsides... so there, I would jsut hook heart now and clubs later... but matchpoint is a different game.. it really isn't real bridge .... :-)

Ben

[Flame]

inquiry, on Sep 16 2004, 10:46 AM, said:

Flame, on Sep 16 2004, 10:51 AM, said:

inquiry, on Sep 16 2004, 09:45 AM, said:

Not a happy hand,

I think I would try the club finess at trick three. This hand can stand two heart losers if you have no club loser. IF club finessee wins, then I will play heart ace and heart. If club finesse loses, I will ruff spade to my hand (or win diamond), and play west for doubleton heart honor, trying to hold my heart losers to one.

So plan in a nut shell....

Play clubs to discover how to play hearts.

How is this better then just running the J of heart ? ot seems to me that its both safer and will make an overtrick more times.

Running heart jack can lose three heart tricks to singleton heart honor offside. Now, back comes a spade, you ruff again (your second ruff) so you are down to three trumps, and your LHO has high honor third left (starting with four to an honor). Now you will lose two more trumps, due to a repeated spade force.

If the club hook wins. You play heart ACE and heart, you can surive 4-1 with stiff offside. Due to spade force, you were never surviving any 4-1 split where both honors are with the four spades (well, if hand with four hearts has only 3 spades, you can not be forced, and make even if you lose to a singleton heart honor)... if the club hook wins.

Now if the club hook loses, you need to catch WEST wtih KQx, Kx, or Qx of hearts, so you forgo the heart ace play and lead the jack and let it ride if not covered.

Ben

Yes i see your point now, but still think its inferior to other lines, first im not sure that even as you said it, playing a club first is safer, because you run the risk of Kxxx or Kxx in east's hand which after taking the club he will continue clubs and you will either get ruffed imidietly or after you play heart. Second If west has Hxxx you still have a two chances either finnese club first , which is intresting. but even if you play heart to the A, you still makes it if west has 3+ diamonds and 3 clubs which is not too bad.

[OSH]

nikos59, on Sep 16 2004, 04:30 PM, said:

I go to the ace of hearts at trick 3 and ruff another spade. Then
cash all diamonds and then exit with a low trump from dummy.
If West has honour doubleton he is endplayed. This line has
the advantage of working when the other lines do not and it
gives you the aura of an expert.

nikos

I agree that my pard stretched a bit the bidding (he also agrees now ).

I played exactly as suggested by nikos (incidentally, scoring -100 and -1.85IMPS instead of -50 / -0.46), but was in doubt between the other three lines, and wasn't able to say if one is superior:
- immediate club finesse to discover the allowed losers in hearts
- HA for a stiff honour or club finesse works
- HJ at trick three.
The opinions are not convergent, it seems.

With a quiet pard, playing 3h, I would have played AH and h from dummy.

[Flame]

You say no line would have worked ? Hxx in west and Hx in east and K club offside ?
I think here is no endplay there (if i understand right, u mean to endplay east not west as nikon said) apart from the Heart position you will need east to have exactly 3 spades and 3 diamonds, giving him honor doublton or KQx of heart will not do you any good, since he can safly lead clubs

[paulhar]

inquiry, on Sep 16 2004, 09:45 AM, said:

Not a happy hand,

I think I would try the club finess at trick three. This hand can stand two heart losers if you have no club loser. IF club finessee wins, then I will play heart ace and heart. If club finesse loses, I will ruff spade to my hand (or win diamond), and play west for doubleton heart honor, trying to hold my heart losers to one.

So plan in a nut shell....

Play clubs to discover how to play hearts.

This plan won't work too well when RHO cleverly ducks the king of clubs (Hideous Hog style) and then you find out you could have picked up the trumps all the while.

Another problem with the club hook is that RHO can win the club and play another club, and then give his partner a ruff with a trump that doesn't deserve to win when in with his Kxx or Qxx of trump. His partner's signal on the first club might make that defense attractive.

Quote

and if lho have one of the missing♥honnørs, i would play ace of ♣ and hope for the K to drop.if not finness ♣

I presume because you think West would bid with S-AK, H honor and king of clubs. What do you expect him to bid with AKxx, Qxx, xx, Kxxx; or AKxx, Qxx, xxxx, Kx?

I still like normal line of running the heart jack, winning the return and cashing the heart ace, and if I haven't made my contract with a doubleton honor falling, trying the club finesse. I do lose to a singleton honor offside but I pick up doubleton honor onside when RHO is going to duck the club king.

Despite both partners pushing, 4H doesn't seem to be a bad game. And, if diamonds turn out to be 5-2, it was a good save against 3S

[inquiry]

Ok, I think I have changed my mine. I forgot that you CAN make it if WEST has four hearts to the KQ by running the jack (I overlooked you just play heart ace and give your two hearts. I was thinking that wouldn't work, and said so earlier.. a blind spot.

The making cases are

1) Club hook wins and you hold hearts to 2 losers
2) Club hook loses, and you hold hearts to 1 loser.

Ignoring the club ruff for a moment, this creates two possible plays in hearts. The first is to play for one loser. There are two ways. Play East or WEST for stiff honor and start wth the ACE. Or play west for Kx, Qx, KQx, or stiff K or Q, and run the jack. This second line has a very small chance of getting an unthinking person with KQxx to cover with the King or Queen let's ignore that chance as we all like to play agaisnt better players than that.

So you can see to play for one loser in hearts, the odds are 4X better running the jack than playing the ace.

When you want to play for no more than 2 heart losers, you are in a much better position. Let's compare the odds of running the jack to playign the ACE. Running the jack assures no MORE than two losers against all these distributions (showing west hand only)... K, Q, Kx, Qx, KQ, Kxx, Qxx, KQx. It also can work if WEST has KQxx (win ace next round and give up two hearts). This comes to a nice, healthy 82% for two losers at most. While playing heart ace on first round, gives you 79.1%. You can get a few more percentage points in the sense that if WEST has only three spades this will make against KQxx or Kxxx or Qxxx on side, but what ever it gains, playing the hook gains the same when stiff heart honor offside, as you can not be forced.

Since the play for one loser in hearts (JACK) is essentially the same as for two losers, clearly that is better (not by a huge margin). Of course, best here is to play 2H.

ben

[paulhar]

inquiry, on Sep 16 2004, 01:30 PM, said:

Of course, best here is to play 2H.

It's always good to play 2H on half the deck and an eight card fit when the opponents have a 9 card spade fit with all the honors. If I could convince my opponents not to bid 2S in these situations, it would make up for a lot of my other shortcomings as a player

[OSH]

Flame, on Sep 16 2004, 05:42 PM, said:

You say no line would have worked ? Hxx in west and Hx in east and K club offside ?

RHO has ♥KQxx and ♣Kx, with doubleton diamond, EW would loose 4 trick in a spade contract (I have a problem in my PC and I'm not able to find the history of the hand -played in a BBO tourney on 15/9).
Anyway, I was interested in when and how to play hearts, thanks.