[cherdano]

jillybean, on 2011-May-15, 23:18, said:

Partner bid 3♦, Im not suggesting opener bids 3♦.
Unless I have a weak hand with 6♠, I routinely bid 2♣/1N, why shouldnt I?

Sorry 3♦ was a typo, I meant 2♦. Don't bid 2♣ on a 2-card suit.

[gwnn]

jillybean, on 2011-May-15, 23:18, said:

Unless I have a weak hand with 6♠, I routinely bid 2♣/1N, why shouldnt I?

Because you have 6 spades and you don't have 4 clubs.

[Lurpoa]

mike777, on 2011-May-15, 21:19, said:

BART

fwiw BART is a very common convention here.


3d=6d less than invite.


1s=1nt
2c=3d

iam rather surprised I am the first to mention this very very common conv.

AKxxx...xxx...x...AJxx

x....xxxx....AKJxxx....xx


2d here is artificial/most common is weakish with 5+h.

Right; and part of BWS2001 !

[jillybean]

I obviously have a basic misunderstanding of how these hands should be bid.
What is your response after 1♠:1N* with these hands


5332
5323
5233

Minimum hand:
6322
6323
6233

Maximum hand:
6322
6323
6233

[cherdano]

(Answers inserted, sorry for the formatting)

jillybean, on 2011-May-16, 07:41, said:

I obviously have a basic misunderstanding of how these hands should be bid.
What is your response after 1♠:1N* with these hands


5332
2♦
5323
5233
2♣ on both of them

Minimum hand:
6322
6323
6233
2♠

Maximum hand:
6322
6323
6233
Depends on what maximum means - if too good for 2♠ you bid 3♠, if too good for that you bid 3NT or jump-shift into your 3-card suit.

It used to be a popular forum style in the last decade to rebid your 3-card minor with 6=2=(3-2) when you have an inbetweeen hand - i.e. too good for 2♠ and not good enough for 3♠. The idea is that you then raise the expected 2♠ preference to 3♠ - at least this way you avoid playing 3♠ opposite a minimum with a spade singleton.
But really, the hand where that is right seems to come up rarely.

[gordontd]

mike777, on 2011-May-15, 21:19, said:

iam rather surprised I am the first to mention this very very common conv.

You weren't Lurpoa was.

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on 2011-May-15, 23:18, said:

Unless I have a weak hand with 6♠, I routinely bid 2♣/1N, why shouldnt I?

Aside from all the reasons mentioned by Frances and a cast of many, there is no mention in the OP that you would do that.

When you merely state "2/1" and give this auction, we should be able to assume that responder has shown long diamonds, just short of game force; that opener's 2c rebid is not a gadget; and that by bidding 3S over 3D opener has more than a minimum, 6 spades and 4 clubs.


A question with a less-obvious answer would be, "What would 3H mean?" -- extra values for sure, but diamonds? pattern? probe?

[jillybean]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-16, 08:38, said:

Aside from all the reasons mentioned by Frances and a cast of many, there is no mention in the OP that you would do that.

When you merely state "2/1" and give this auction, we should be able to assume that responder has shown long diamonds, just short of game force; that opener's 2c rebid is not a gadget; and that by bidding 3S over 3D opener has more than a minimum, 6 spades and 4 clubs.


A question with a less-obvious answer would be, "What would 3H mean?" -- extra values for sure, but diamonds? pattern? probe?

And that was my hand in the original question(6xx4) This disucssion has morphed into rebids with 6322,5332

[aguahombre]

It indeed morphed. And you are content that the bidding described your strength and black-suit shape on your actual hand.

If you would have rebid 2C with those week 6-3-3-2 hands, or bid 3S now on some 5-3-3-2 hands, then what you showed on the original hand would be gone out the window. And that answers "Why shouldn't I?".

[jillybean]

With my regular partner, we rebid 2C on 5332. Partner knows I can have as few as 2, it is a pass/correct situation.
If I rebid 2D on 5332 and partner holds a weak hand, 2335 we will be playing in 3C when we should be in 2C.

[gnasher]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-16, 08:38, said:

A question with a less-obvious answer would be, "What would 3H mean?" -- extra values for sure, but diamonds? pattern? probe?

It's Fourth Suit Forcing. The sequence is unusual, but the conditions are almost identical to those in a standard FSF sequence: we've bid three suits, haven't yet found a fit, can't have a fit in the fourth suit, may belong in any of the other four strains, and may or may not have a stop in the unbid suit.

With a 5314, enough to bid game and a heart stop, you'd have a 3NT bid.

[manudude03]

jillybean, on 2011-May-16, 14:19, said:

With my regular partner, we rebid 2C on 5332. Partner knows I can have as few as 2, it is a pass/correct situation.
If I rebid 2D on 5332 and partner holds a weak hand, 2335 we will be playing in 3C when we should be in 2C.

Why would partner bid 3C? With a 2335, it's nearly always right to bid 2S (2NT if strong enough).

[whereagles]

jilly: I would say more or less what gerben said or, eventually, a hand stuck for a bid due to lack of heart stop, i.e.

AQJxx
xx
Kx
Axxx

Remember that very important principle that people tend to fgorget: "undiscussed bids are NATURAL."

[jillybean]

manudude03, on 2011-May-17, 05:50, said:

Why would partner bid 3C? With a 2335, it's nearly always right to bid 2S (2NT if strong enough).

Good point.

[Fluffy]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-16, 11:06, said:

those week 6-3-3-2 hands

14 days = 2 weeks not 1

[helene_t]

Rebiding 2♣ with all balanced hands (except when strong enough for 2NT) wins when responder has six clubs, though. And when responder has six diamonds it probably doesn't matter much. It loses when responder is 1444, 0454 or 1354 and will pass (or raise) any minor suit rebid.