[straube]

What's this sequence show? I'm thinking it should be natural with 5+ diamonds

[JLOGIC]

cuebid

[Yu18772]

I am with JLOGIC, although some people play it natural by agreement if the opener may be 3 or less in the minor.

[whereagles]

I play it as cue, showing an overcall worth a good full opening (13-17 or thereabouts).

[awm]

I actually think that this should be natural. It would be nice if rebidding 2♥ promised six, right? But what do you bid with 5/5 in the reds?

The 1♠ bid should promise some values and (usually) a five-card suit. So we can feel comfortable raising on three-card support. This leaves the only problem pattern as something like 2533 without a diamond stopper. This is possible, but I think hands with real diamonds are a lot more likely. I also don't want my methods to depend on whether 1♦ was 4+ or 3+ or 2+.

[Fluffy]

I had this problem long ago, but then I asked the best spanish theorist and told me that bidding is too hard when you don't have a cuebid avaible.

This was after I missed cold 6♠ on a similar sequence after RHO opened 1♣, and I was afraid of cuebidding so bid 4♠ instead. Happened in Bejing 2008. One of the many hands that would had been enough for us to qualify.

[rogerclee]

Constructive bidding is too hard without a cuebid. If your only point is that 2D natural is very effective when you have long diamonds, then I agree with that.

[whereagles]

 rogerclee, on 2011-May-06, 10:33, said:

Constructive bidding is too hard without a cuebid.

what are you taking about? if opps stay silent you usually do better than if they butt-in and you're not using any "cues"

[awm]

Compared to an uncontested 1♥-1♠ auction:

(1) Overcaller has a narrower high card range, about 8-16 instead of 11-20, and the low end won't be a six-card suit.
(2) Slam is less of a concern because the opponents have opened.
(3) We know more about opponents shape/strength due to the opening and pass.
(4) Advancer has more restricted shape (almost always five-card spade suit).
(5) Overcaller has more restricted shape (might double with 4513 for example)

It seems like we are way ahead, and still at the one-level. I'm not sure exactly what hand type needs the two-level cuebid anyway. It seems like the cuebid is a strong hand, but without a fit, without a side suit, without a strong six-card heart suit, without a diamond stopper, and not good enough to power double. That's gotta be way more unusual than a natural hand with the reds doesn't it?

[FrancesHinden]

About two years ago I changed from this being a cuebid to being natural. Neither meaning has come up since. (I play the jump as a cuebid)

[straube]

 awm, on 2011-May-06, 11:50, said:

Compared to an uncontested 1♥-1♠ auction:

(1) Overcaller has a narrower high card range, about 8-16 instead of 11-20, and the low end won't be a six-card suit.
(2) Slam is less of a concern because the opponents have opened.
(3) We know more about opponents shape/strength due to the opening and pass.
(4) Advancer has more restricted shape (almost always five-card spade suit).
(5) Overcaller has more restricted shape (might double with 4513 for example)

It seems like we are way ahead, and still at the one-level. I'm not sure exactly what hand type needs the two-level cuebid anyway. It seems like the cuebid is a strong hand, but without a fit, without a side suit, without a strong six-card heart suit, without a diamond stopper, and not good enough to power double. That's gotta be way more unusual than a natural hand with the reds doesn't it?

I like this reasoning. Plus, isn't it advisable to overcall goodish 4cd suits with length in opponent's minor? This might be easier to see when the opponent opens 1C.

[menggq]

i play 2♦ as cue bid if nat why not bid NT?

[Fluffy]

I can't recall disagreeing that much with an awm's post but here it goes:

 awm, on 2011-May-06, 11:50, said:

(1) Overcaller has a narrower high card range, about 8-16 instead of 11-20, and the low end won't be a six-card suit.

I don't see a big difference here, its more like 7-19 overcalls for me anyway.

 awm, on 2011-May-06, 11:50, said:

(4) Advancer has more restricted shape (almost always five-card spade suit).

1♠ shows 4 cards only, the only thing that you can get out are some raises that would cuebid. But those would also bid J2NT or something similar. Also a hand with lenght in opener's suit cannot start with a cuebid and must start with 1♠.

 awm, on 2011-May-06, 11:50, said:

(5) Overcaller has more restricted shape (might double with 4513 for example)

Overcalling 1♥ with 4513 is completelly normal, a might doesn't get any distribution out of the posibilities, however a might does include aditional posibilities, wich doesn't happen when you open 1♥, I am talking about 4 card overcalls wich mean more posibilities are there.

 awm, on 2011-May-06, 11:50, said:

It seems like we are way ahead, and still at the one-level. I'm not sure exactly what hand type needs the two-level cuebid anyway. It seems like the cuebid is a strong hand, but without a fit, without a side suit, without a strong six-card heart suit, without a diamond stopper, and not good enough to power double. That's gotta be way more unusual than a natural hand with the reds doesn't it?

What is your forcing bid with a fit if you don't have a cuebid?, I don't play forcing jump shifts also so I can't bid 3♣ with a very strong hand (this might not be standard). The fact that I have a diamond stopper shouldn't preclude us from finding a 5-3 or 6-2 spade fit.

[awm]

Well, Fluffy might be into bidding bad four-card spade suits after (1m)-1♥-(Pass) but I don't think that's at all standard. For most of us the 1♠ advance is almost always a five-card suit, maybe a very robust four-card suit that would play well in a moysian.

As for Fluffy's "forcing raise of spades" -- you evidently have both major suits and yet you overcalled 1♥ instead of doubling. I don't think your hand can be strong enough to force game opposite a simple one-level response can it? When you have both majors it's pretty safe to double when you have 17+ or the like.