Established revoke followed by subsequent opposing revoke L64B7
#1
Posted 2011-July-17, 08:48
I was about to transfer the appropriate number of tricks for the defensive revoke (two, in this case) to declarer, when I hazily remembered something about revokes by both sides. Checking TFLB, I found 64B7: "There is no rectification as in A following an established revoke...when both sides have revoked on the same board."
It appears, then, that once declarer revokes here (even if he doesn't establish it!), he is no longer entitled to the 64A rectification, but is limited to the 64C equity adjustment. So I ruled that the equitable one trick only was transferred. Did I miss anything?
#2
Posted 2011-July-17, 09:32
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
Posted 2011-July-17, 15:43
#4
Posted 2011-July-17, 17:01
![:(](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
Ton, being Ton, is no doubt correct as to how we should interpret the law. The problem is that the law doesn't actually say that.
![:blink:](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
![:(](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#5
Posted 2011-July-18, 08:35
I don't really understand his reference to "the heading of Law 64B", which in my copy is "No Rectification".
#6
Posted 2011-July-19, 02:29
If the the second revoke is not established you can not apply any part of 64B since it only deals with established revokes.
#7
Posted 2011-July-19, 06:01
jhenrikj, on 2011-July-19, 02:29, said:
If the the second revoke is not established you can not apply any part of 64B since it only deals with established revokes.
A revoke in trick 12 becomes established if the offending side leads of plays to trick 13 (this was the case in OP), or if play ceases because of a claim or concession.
Therefore the revoke in trick 12 must be corrected as prescribed in Law 62D, the rectification for the previous revoke (by the other side) is void as prescribed in Law 64B7 and is replaced by a rectification as prescribed in Law 64C.
#8
Posted 2011-July-19, 08:37
jhenrikj, on 2011-July-19, 02:29, said:
This is odd. The minutes of the WBF Laws Committee meeting on 12th October 2010 say:
Quote
matters of law on the WBF web site it was agreed that the mention of
his title as chairman of the committee shall be removed.
And yet it has not been.
London UK
#9
Posted 2011-July-19, 09:30
pran, on 2011-July-19, 06:01, said:
Therefore the revoke in trick 12 must be corrected as prescribed in Law 62D, the rectification for the previous revoke (by the other side) is void as prescribed in Law 64B7 and is replaced by a rectification as prescribed in Law 64C.
That we all agree on, see my first response to the OP.
What we do not agree on is if the opinion that both revokes has to be established is in the laws or not. Ton's opinion, and I agree with him, is that we can't look at 64B to see what happens after the second revoke if that revoke is not established since 64B only applies after established revokes.
#10
Posted 2011-July-19, 09:34
gordontd, on 2011-July-19, 08:37, said:
And yet it has not been.
It hasn't? I can find no mention at all of he being the chairman ....
Quote
The line above is what the website says, so according to that I think that the commentary is official. It would be very strange to issue a minute saying that something that does not exist should be removed so my guess is that it is removed.
#11
Posted 2011-July-19, 09:39
jhenrikj, on 2011-July-19, 09:34, said:
It says:
Quote
by Ton Kooijman, Chairman of the WBF Laws Committee
London UK
#12
Posted 2011-July-19, 11:03
jhenrikj, on 2011-July-19, 09:30, said:
What we do not agree on is if the opinion that both revokes has to be established is in the laws or not. Ton's opinion, and I agree with him, is that we can't look at 64B to see what happens after the second revoke if that revoke is not established since 64B only applies after established revokes.
To understand [in part] the effect of law consider the following:
At T2 W revokes and corrects before it is established; and N [dummy] revokes and corrects before it is established. Then at T3 E revokes and it is established. L64B7 provides that there are no penalty tricks for established revokes during this board.
#13
Posted 2011-July-19, 13:47
axman, on 2011-July-19, 11:03, said:
At T2 W revokes and corrects before it is established; and N [dummy] revokes and corrects before it is established. Then at T3 E revokes and it is established. L64B7 provides that there are no penalty tricks for established revokes during this board.
No, since the first revokes are not established the last revoke will be rectified. Only when both sides have established revokes 64B7 applies.
#14
Posted 2011-July-19, 14:47
jhenrikj, on 2011-July-19, 13:47, said:
There is no rectification as in A following an established revoke when both sides have revoked on the same board.
Have both sides revoked on the same board? Yes. Therefore, no established revokes during the board have penalty tricks of 64A.
#15
Posted 2011-July-19, 17:36
jhenrikj, on 2011-July-19, 09:30, said:
What we do not agree on is if the opinion that both revokes has to be established is in the laws or not. Ton's opinion, and I agree with him, is that we can't look at 64B to see what happens after the second revoke if that revoke is not established since 64B only applies after established revokes.
Isn't that obvious?
Law 62A applies to any revoke that has not been established before the offender becomes aware of his offence, and also to any revoke in trick 12 whether or not that revoke is established.
Law 64A begins with the text: "When a revoke is established:" and therefore applies only to established revokes. (Law 64A is overridden by Law 62D in the case of revoke in trick 12).
Law 64B begins with the text: "There is no rectification as in A following an established revoke:" so Law 64B is an exception from Law 64A and therefore cannot possibly apply unless Law 64A would first seem appliccable.
#16
Posted 2011-July-19, 23:58
Revoke 1 by NS is established
Revoke 2 by EW is not established (and is corrected)
then, at the end of play, we apply 64A to Revoke 1, and 64B does not apply because Revoke 2 was never established.
I'm not sure which words in the law are being used to support this view, though. It seems to me that 64B applies whenever 64A is invoked.
(By the way, I do not think 64A is overridden by 62D. I think it is overridden by the wording of 64B6: no 64A rectification "if it is a revoke on the twelfth trick".)
#17
Posted 2011-July-20, 00:52
alphatango, on 2011-July-19, 23:58, said:
Revoke 1 by NS is established
Revoke 2 by EW is not established (and is corrected)
then, at the end of play, we apply 64A to Revoke 1, and 64B does not apply because Revoke 2 was never established.
I'm not sure which words in the law are being used to support this view, though. It seems to me that 64B applies whenever 64A is invoked.
(By the way, I do not think 64A is overridden by 62D. I think it is overridden by the wording of 64B6: no 64A rectification "if it is a revoke on the twelfth trick".)
What you say is that if I in T2 revokes in spades, but corrects it at once and then in T3 once again revokes in spades, this time it becomes established, there is no rectification for the second revoke because it's a subsequent revoke in the same suit by the same player?
The main thing here is to understand that all revokes mentioned under law64 are established revokes. The word "revoke" in law 64 is the equivalent to "established revoke" since law 64 exclusively deals with established revokes.
The other logical way to look at it is that after an unestablished revoke is corrected, that player has no longer revoked because a revoke is "not following suit" and after the correction the player has followed suit, so he has not longer revoked.
#18
Posted 2011-July-20, 01:48
jhenrikj, on 2011-July-20, 00:52, said:
Fair enough. I'm not sure I agree that's what the law says, but I think I understand why you and Ton are interpreting it the way you do.
#19
Posted 2011-July-20, 03:10
alphatango, on 2011-July-19, 23:58, said:
(By the way, I do not think 64A is overridden by 62D. I think it is overridden by the wording of 64B6: no 64A rectification "if it is a revoke on the twelfth trick".)
Law 64A is a general law appliccable to established revokes.
Law 62D is a spesific law that applies to revokes in trick 12 (and explicitly whether or not the revoke is established).
We have a firm rule that specific laws take precedence over general laws.
Law 64B6 will apply only if the revoke in trick 12 was not "discovered" until after all four hands had been restored to the board.
#20
Posted 2011-July-20, 03:12
jhenrikj, on 2011-July-20, 00:52, said:
The other logical way to look at it is that after an unestablished revoke is corrected, that player has no longer revoked because a revoke is "not following suit" and after the correction the player has followed suit, so he has not longer revoked.
Precisely!