How do you rule? insufficient 1N
#1
Posted 2011-May-04, 18:52
(1♥) 2♦ (1N)
1N was not unintentional. ACBL land.
(still learning)
#2
Posted 2011-May-04, 19:18
*This presumes that both 1NT and 2NT would be natural, which I think is likely, but the TD should investigate to be sure.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
Posted 2011-May-04, 19:39
I may not understand the laws correctly but this seems to be a risk free method to signal to partner that you have a minimum hand and that 2N is to play. 1N oops, I mean 2N.
Or, for partner to make an easy pass of the forced 2N.
Maybe I'm being too cynical.
(still learning)
#4
Posted 2011-May-04, 23:03
#5
Posted 2011-May-05, 00:28
barmar, on 2011-May-04, 23:03, said:
What UI? Law 16D does not apply after a change according to 27B1(a). We still have the possibility to use 27D to adjust the score if we think that the outcome would have been different without the insufficient bid, but the information from the withdrawn 1NT is AI.
#6
Posted 2011-May-05, 01:38
jhenrikj, on 2011-May-05, 00:28, said:
barmar said:
What UI? Law 16D does not apply after a change according to 27B1(a). We still have the possibility to use 27D to adjust the score if we think that the outcome would have been different without the insufficient bid, but the information from the withdrawn 1NT is AI.
27D and not 16D is the law in this case.
#7
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:02
jhenrikj, on 2011-May-05, 00:28, said:
Please explain how the information from the withdrawn 1NT is AI?
(still learning)
#8
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:09
No, you are not being (overly) cynical. I have had opponents who bent over backwards to ignore the insufficient bid and assume the sufficient one was intended. But, I have never gotten a favorable ruling when they didn't.
#9
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:19
aguahombre, on 2011-May-05, 09:09, said:
No, you are not being (overly) cynical. I have had opponents who bent over backwards to ignore the insufficient bid and assume the sufficient one was intended. But, I have never gotten a favorable ruling when they didn't.
Ok, I thought he was saying it was AI to all.
Partner held KJ94,Q982,83,K52 , and passed his partners 2N/1N
(still learning)
#10
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:29
![:rolleyes:](http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
#11
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:33
If the opponents are damaged as a result of information from the infraction then we apply Law 27D, not Law 16 (or Law 73).
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#12
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:35
aguahombre, on 2011-May-05, 09:09, said:
No, you are not being (overly) cynical. I have had opponents who bent over backwards to ignore the insufficient bid and assume the sufficient one was intended. But, I have never gotten a favorable ruling when they didn't.
No it's AI to everyone. Read 16D
Quote
When a call or play has been withdrawn as these laws provide:
For a non-offending side, all information arising from a withdrawn action is authorized, whether the action be its own or its opponents.
For an offending side, information arising from its own withdrawn action and from withdrawn actions of the non-offending side is unauthorized. A player of an offending side may not choose from among logical alternative actions one that could demonstrably have been suggested over another by the unauthorized information.
Now 27B1 says that 16D does not apply so the information from the withdraw bid is AI to everyone.
We have to use 27D to adjust the score if the non-offending side is damaged by the insufficient bid. In this cas I would probably not use it.
#13
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:43
#15
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:46
aguahombre, on 2011-May-05, 09:43, said:
But please....why can't you understand the words 16D does not apply, when using 27B1 16D does not exist at all.
Quote
If an insufficient bid in rotation is not accepted (see A) it must be corrected by the substitution of a legal call (but see 3 following). Then
1. a. if the insufficient bid is corrected by the lowest sufficient bid in the same denomination and in the Director’s opinion both the insufficient bid and the substituted bid are incontrovertibly not artificial the auction proceeds without further rectification. Law 16D does not apply but see D following.
#16
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:56
jhenrikj, on 2011-May-05, 09:46, said:
Technically true, but "see D below" when stating that 16D doesn't apply gives the director the power to rule as if there was unauthorized information. And, IMO they should when partner of the insufficient bidder uses the information from the withdrawn call to not accept what would have been a game-invite bid if it hadn't been preceeded by a withdrawn weak bid.
Unfortunately they don't do this very often; and they also don't apply the fact that the offender might have known his action would damage the opponents. Shining it on seems more normal.
#17
Posted 2011-May-05, 09:57
Bbradley62, on 2011-May-05, 09:44, said:
Because the player was surprised when we brought his attention to the 2♦ bid, he had overlooked the bid.
(still learning)
#19
Posted 2011-May-05, 10:33
aguahombre, on 2011-May-05, 09:56, said:
Unfortunately they don't do this very often; and they also don't apply the fact that the offender might have known his action would damage the opponents. Shining it on seems more normal.
No it does not give the director that power. It gives the director the power to adjust the score if the result would have been different without the IB.
Let's say south does not bid 1NT but passes instead (he would not bid 2NT if that shows a stronger hand), now it's very possible for the bidding to continue 2♦ pass pass X pass 2NT all pass. This means that we could end up in the same contract even without the IB and because of that we do not adjust. There is no UI and there can be no ruling concerning UI.
#20
Posted 2011-May-05, 10:57
Quote
If the infraction has demonstrably helped the offending side to get into the advantageous contract the
TD should award an adjusted score. But in considering such cases, the TD needs to realise that information
gained through the insufficient bid is authorized and may be used.
West has ♠AJ1052 ♥AJ ♦Q87 ♣Q64 and the auction develops like:
West North East South
1♠ 2♥ 1NT
• East had not noticed the overcall. After intervention from the TD, East bids 2NT. With 1NT
showing 6-9 HCP, West decides to pass 2NT, though with a partner bidding 2NT at once he
would have bid 3NT. Taking this decision he does not infringe the laws in any manner.