[Free]

mike777, on 2011-May-07, 02:17, said:

Are you asking how can anyone prove the pictures or movies are not super duper computer fakes? super beyond your computer knowledge?

No.

[kenberg]

I said I wouldn't get into the "Was it really OBL?" issue but perhaps a broader response makes sense. Yes their are con men in the world, no you cannot ever be sure you are not being conned, but in order to live we have to make some sort of reasonable assessment. In the current case, imagine you are in the WH planning room, the operation to get OBL got his cook instead, and the question is what to say. Someone suggests faking it. Even if you think everyone in the Obama administration is a bit stupid, it still seems someone might say: "Suppose we announce OBL's death on Sunday, and on Tuesday a video appears with OBL calmly and healthily discussing world events that occurred on Monday. Wouldn't that be a little embarrassing?" It seems extremely likely to me that someone would raise this possibility, and equally likely that then this plan of deception would be abandoned. I try not to buy gold watches for a dollar (to use a scene from Guys and Dolls) but believing nothing that you hear is as destructive as believing everything that you hear.

So yes, OBL is dead, shot by a SEAL in a house in Pakistan. The latest version that I have heard of the details says he was unarmed, moving toward a bedroom, there was an assault rifle (unknown at the time) in the bedroom. But I also read that the SEAL's general approach was "If you see it, you shoot it". Both statements might be true, and the possibility of the first would make the second seem (to me) like a sensible plan. Unless I plan on going in myself, I'll leave these details to those who do.

I guess an example of the difficulty in judging truth is in trying to decide whether expressions of skepticism of the corpse really being OBL should be taken seriously or as a put on. No doubt there are instances of both. On an individual basis, it's a tough call.

[gwnn]

You're all missing the point, folks, I'm sorry to say. The real question is, I was surprised to learn, "did bin Laden ever exist?". Some friends of mine were talking about this. Apparently he was an American actor who was paid to scare people and justify war.

[Free]

gwnn, on 2011-May-08, 18:52, said:

You're all missing the point, folks, I'm sorry to say. The real question is, I was surprised to learn, "did bin Laden ever exist?". Some friends of mine were talking about this. Apparently he was an American actor who was paid to scare people and justify war.

If he didn't exist, then the Bush administration would've caught him a few years ago.

[PassedOut]

Republican John McCain still does not endorse torture: Bin Laden’s death and the debate over torture

Quote

Ultimately, this is more than a utilitarian debate. This is a moral debate. It is about who we are.

I don’t mourn the loss of any terrorist’s life. What I do mourn is what we lose when by official policy or official neglect we confuse or encourage those who fight this war for us to forget that best sense of ourselves.

Well said.

[luke warm]

yes, mccain knows firsthand of which he speaks, and he's speaking of both the present president and the previous one

[jmcw]

God Bless America.
It's a blessing to live in a part of the world where I can enjoy the freedoms that the American Military have provided.
IMO we all of owe a big debt of gratitude to the men and women who protect us every day.
I say, do whatever it takes to keep us free and safe from those who would harm us.

When it comes to war, American policy has time and time again shown Moral superiority over any who oppose us or for that matter any of our allies.

Thank you.

[luke warm]

jmcw, on 2011-June-02, 19:47, said:

God Bless America.
It's a blessing to live in a part of the world where I can enjoy the freedoms that the American Military have provided.
IMO we all of owe a big debt of gratitude to the men and women who protect us every day.
I say, do whatever it takes to keep us free and safe from those who would harm us.

When it comes to war, American policy has time and time again shown Moral superiority over any who oppose us or for that matter any of our allies.

Thank you.

hear hear

[PassedOut]

jmcw, on 2011-June-02, 19:47, said:

When it comes to war, American policy has time and time again shown Moral superiority over any who oppose us or for that matter any of our allies.

US soldiers sacrifice a lot for our country and deserve our full support. But it's not obvious to me why you claim that "American policy" has shown a moral superiority over everyone else's, including our allies. Is that supposed to be a given, or do you have some examples of morally superior American policies that will clarify what you mean?

[cherdano]

jmcw, on 2011-June-02, 19:47, said:

When it comes to war, American policy has time and time again shown Moral superiority over any who oppose us or for that matter any of our allies.

Let me guess. You have never had good friends from Nicaragua.

[kenberg]

I have never found it productive to claim that I am morally superior to my friends. They might bring up various events of my life that I would rather not dwell on.

Of course I am aware of the importance of the work performed by those in the military. Also by farmers, coal miners, and truck drivers. We even need lawyers and Wall Street investors, God help us.

Unless the world becomes a very different place, there will be armed conflict. Technology can help, but I believe that for the foreseeable future we will need people who are willing to lay their life on the line in the protection of our country. That's reason enough to pay respect. To see that our military force is used in a manner that does us honor is the responsibility of us all.

And really, we need all the friends we can get. A little luck wouldn't hurt either.

Anyway, to those in the military, I join in acknowledging our debt to you.

[blackshoe]

kenberg, on 2011-June-03, 08:26, said:

Unless the world becomes a very different place, there will be armed conflict. Technology can help, but I believe that for the foreseeable future we will need people who are willing to lay their life on the line in the protection of our country.

Quote

"You can fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life but if you desire to defend it, protect it, and keep it for civilization you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman Legions did, by putting your young men into the mud." — T. R. Fehrenbach, This Kind of War

kenberg, on 2011-June-03, 08:26, said:

That's reason enough to pay respect. To see that our military force is used in a manner that does us honor is the responsibility of us all.

And really, we need all the friends we can get. A little luck wouldn't hurt either.

Anyway, to those in the military, I join in acknowledging our debt to you.

I couldn't agree more, with all of that.