[awm]

We've been having some issues with the specific reverse auction 1♦-1♠-2♥. Supposing that we use 2NT as a weakness signal here (with 2♠ showing five or more spades and other calls being forcing to game), the issue is what opener should rebid after 1♦-1♠-2♥-2NT. There seem to be three options:

(1) 3♣ is automatic on any minimum reverse, 3♦ would be forcing to game. The problem is that bidding 3♣ and possibly being passed there with 2461, 3460, 2470, etc seems pretty unappealing. Reverses on these shapes can potentially be lighter than reverses on 1453 so it's not that desirable to automatically game force on them.

(2) 3♦ is automatic on any minimum reverse, 3♣ would be forcing to game. But there is a hand type where we'd actually want to play in clubs (responder 4216 being the most typical shape) and now we are stuck in what could be a 5-1 diamond fit with an 8 or 9-card club fit.

(3) Both 3♣ and 3♦ are non-forcing; 3♣ shows a hand with some minimum number of clubs (2? 1?) and 3♦ shows a hand with extra-long diamonds and probably no club tolerance. But now opener seems to have no way to force in this sequence, which is a problem on various "really big" hands that aren't suited to just bidding 3NT.

Do people have preferences about these options? Which is "most standard" playing ingberman or lebensohl over reverses? Does anyone have a pet method in this auction that works better than any of the above?

[JLOGIC]

I prefer 3C to be the bid. I think on average when partner is going to pass 3C, it will be a good spot, he will have at least 6 clubs and few diamonds. Yes sometimes you have really long diamonds and no clubs and it sucks, but it seems much better than forcing opener to bid 3D and possibly being forced into a silly 5-1 fit.

I don't like the idea of using both bids as weak, but maybe thats just me.

[mike777]

fwiw after 1d=1s=2h=2nt=?

3c=0=4=5=4 and is always forcing

that means most minimums would rebid 3d.


2nt is art., weakish, 1RF, does not promise a rebid and does not promise stoppers, denies 5+s.

[manudude03]

I play the same as Justin, but I did have a random thought while reading this.

Have 2S and 2NT as both artificial waiting (not necessarily weak).

2S shows exactly 4S over which opener shows tolerance to clubs (at least 2) by bidding 3C without a GF and bids 2NT without tolerance (forcing, but not to game). With a GF, 3H is the general catchall. Over either 2NT or 3C, 3D and 3H are non-forcing and suggests to play there (may only be a 7 card fit in either case).

2NT shows at least 5 spades, over which opener bids 3C with any game-forcing hand (3D relay, responses natural, 3NT being "balanced" without club stopper- else you would have bid it the round before). 3D could still be a 5 card suit, 3H shows extra length and 3S just shows spade support.

Possibly complete nonsense, but it's just what was going in my head lol.

[aguahombre]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-April-16, 10:34, said:

I prefer 3C to be the bid. I think on average when partner is going to pass 3C, it will be a good spot, he will have at least 6 clubs and few diamonds. Yes sometimes you have really long diamonds and no clubs and it sucks, but it seems much better than forcing opener to bid 3D and possibly being forced into a silly 5-1 fit.

I don't like the idea of using both bids as weak, but maybe thats just me.

Our solution is to also have only 3C as the weak reverse after leben 2NT. In anticipation of this very problem, a hand with no club tolerance, really long diamonds, and only 16-17 just won't reverse.

[kenrexford]

I prefer a slightly different approach, perhaps nuanced #3.

1♦-1♠
2♥-2NT(weak)
3♣ = I have something in clubs. Almost forcing. Responder can pass, but he will normally raise to 3♣ with a borderline hand where he might have passed a "3♣ because I have to" call. Also, Responder will often courtesy correct when in doubt. But, Responder might pass.

1♦-1♠
2♥-2NT
3♦ = I don't have anything in clubs. Because I did not rebid 3♠, I clearly do not have 3451, and I probably don't have 3460. I diodn't rebid hearts, so I don't have 6♦/5♥. With 2452, I'd have "something in clubs" if I have Hx in clubs. Hence, I have extra length in diamonds usually. This is not technically forcing.

[straube]

Does 2H always promise 4 hearts? How about

1D-1S, 2H

.....2S-weakness signal
..........2N-something in clubs, nf
...............3C-to play
..........3C-3 spades, f
..........3D-4/6, nf
..........3H-5/6, nf
..........3S-artificial GF (probably something in clubs else the 4-level)

.....2N-natural, GF (at worst 5-3-2-3)

.....3C-5 clubs (could have 5 spades), GF
.....3D-natural (could have 5 spades), GF
.....3H-natural (will have 5 spades), GF
..........3S-sets spades
.....3S-6 spades, GF

[Zelandakh]

I play the same as Justin by default too but transfers are not silly here, eg:-

1D - 1S - 2H
============
2S = weakness
2N = clubs, GF
3C = diamonds, GF
3D = hearts, GF
3H = 5 spades, GF
3S = 6+ spades, GF

An alternative is to simply switch the 2S and 2NT rebids and leave the 3-level responses as natural and GF. Either way having 2S as the weakness call enables the auction 1D - 1S - 2H - 2S - 2NT - 3C - 3D where Opener does not have club tolerance. Straube's idea looks to have this incorporated but I would be worried of losing the spade suit there.

[Cascade]

We have played Herbert (1st step) negatives over reverses on the auctions 1x 1y; 2z (reverse) for a couple of years. It seems to work reasonably well.

[straube]

 Zelandakh, on 2011-April-17, 10:56, said:

I play the same as Justin by default too but transfers are not silly here, eg:-

1D - 1S - 2H
============
2S = weakness
2N = clubs, GF
3C = diamonds, GF
3D = hearts, GF
3H = 5 spades, GF
3S = 6+ spades, GF

An alternative is to simply switch the 2S and 2NT rebids and leave the 3-level responses as natural and GF. Either way having 2S as the weakness call enables the auction 1D - 1S - 2H - 2S - 2NT - 3C - 3D where Opener does not have club tolerance. Straube's idea looks to have this incorporated but I would be worried of losing the spade suit there.

I don't lose the spade suit. When I only have 5 spades I allow for discovering a minor suit fit first. On many deals, opener won't have any interest in whether partner has 5 spades. On other deals, he still finds them. The structure you propose uses too much space for the gf 5 spade hands and responder has to decide whether to show a diamond fit (or look for a club fit) later.

See, mine works like...

1D-1S, 2H-3D, 3S and now responder knows opener has 3-4-5-1 and opener knows that responder has a diamond fit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Zelandakh, on 2011-April-17, 10:56, said:

I play the same as Justin by default too but transfers are not silly here, eg:-

1D - 1S - 2H
============
2S = weakness
2N = clubs, GF
3C = diamonds, GF
3D = hearts, GF
3H = 5 spades, GF
3S = 6+ spades, GF

An alternative is to simply switch the 2S and 2NT rebids and leave the 3-level responses as natural and GF. Either way having 2S as the weakness call enables the auction 1D - 1S - 2H - 2S - 2NT - 3C - 3D where Opener does not have club tolerance. Straube's idea looks to have this incorporated but I would be worried of losing the spade suit there.

Very interesting.

Two observations:
1) Using Zel's Transfers, you do have the option of Responder showing Diam support first ( as straube ):
1D - 1S
2H - 3C! ( Diam, GF )
3S ( 3 cards ♠ ) - ?? but now how does Responder show 5 cards ♠ with a slammish hand ?
I suppose cuebidding commences, but Responder would have to bid 5S at some point to "agree ♠"
unless 4NT = 6 Ace keycard .

2) I like the Zel's direct 3S-jump ( over 2H ) to show 6+ cards ♠,GF; but recall this quote from Justin in a previous Reverse/Slam auction ( http://www.bridgebas...e-slam-auction/ ) :
" Having to bid 3S sucks " .

His solution for a slammish auction is to make the Leb-weakness bid first, and THEN BID 3S to show 6+♠ AND a Ctrl in the 4th suit ( ♣ here ) .

So, i wonder if there might be a little "optimization" in order here:
1D - 1S
2H - 2S! ( Zel's weakness bid )
any - 3S! = GF,slammish ... 6+♠ + ♣ Ctrl

[Zelandakh]

I thought of adding some extra comments to the weakness bid but decided general outlines were clearer and better. A question I have thought about asking here involves this auction where Responder has an 8-9 count and 4=3=2=4 shape with their points in spades and diamonds, something like AJxx,xxx,Kx,xxxx. Do the majority play here that bidding the weakness response followed by 3NT asks for a club stop or that it shows extras? Similarly would anyone treat xxxx as a stop? FWiiW I like the former approach.

In your auction #1, it is all ok so long as you do not play Minorwood. After 1D - 1S - 2H - 3C - 3S, you could play 3N/5D as weakish with 4 spades, 4C as slam try with 5 spades, 4D as slam try with 4 spades, 4S as weakish with 5 spades, and 4H (or 4NT) as RKCB for diamonds.

The problem on auction 2 is that the sequence 1D - 1S - 2H - 2S - 2N - 3S is required as a sign-off. This is not the case when using a 2S rebid as non-forcing as in the quoted post. I do not see an obvious solution to this aside from simply assigning a special meaning to another sequence (1D - 1S - 2H - 2N - 3C - 3S shows 6+ spades and club stop?) which is really just asking for trouble. Playing the simple inversion of 2S and 2NT does solve the problem, of course; 1D - 1S - 2H - 3S can deny a club stop while 1D - 1S - 2H - 2N - 3any - 3S would then show one.

[P_Marlowe]

I prefer 3C being the min response, simply because
2NT is a "transfer" to 3C, and you should only break
the transfer, if you have add. value.

In other words, I prefer it for simplicity reasons.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Zelandakh, on 2011-April-18, 03:12, said:

..... Playing the simple inversion of 2S and 2NT does solve the problem, of course; 1D - 1S - 2H - 3S can deny a club stop while 1D - 1S - 2H - 2N - 3any - 3S would then show one.

Zel:
What is the "Spade Sign-off" with the "inversion" ?

And with the "inversion", does this mean Responder's 2S! = Clubs, GF ? and the other 3-level bids are still transfers ? ( and 2NT! = weakness [ like Leb ] ) .

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I'm hoping some of this is helpful and not just a mere hijacking by me......

Here is a hand posted back in September, 2010 starting with the same bidding ( http://www.bridgebas...what-was-wrong/ ) :

Zel, how would your "Transfer" auction go ??

---

[awm]

Here's an idea that seems to combine a few things together:

... 2♠ = minimum with 4-5♠, NF, willing to play 2♠ opposite a 3-card raise with minimum reverse values
... 2NT = forcing and asking opener to pattern out, usually GF with one possible exception
... 3♣ = shows a weak hand with a fit for one of opener's suits (usually diamonds) and only 4♠
... Else = natural GF

Over 2♠, opener can pass with a 3-card raise and minimum values. Otherwise he has available 2NT (short spades and NF) or 3♦ (very long diams and NF) with minimum hands, and 2NT can be corrected to 3m to play. With a GF opener can bid 3♣ (4th suit) or 3♠ (3451 GF) or 3NT (1453 or the like).

Over 2NT, opener bids 3♣ (1453) or 3♦ (6+♦) or 3♥ (5/6) or 3♠ (3451) or 3NT (2452). There is one hand type where it might be desirable to bid 2NT with less than game values, which is a hand with a long spade suit (6+♠) that expects to make game opposite a minimum reverse with support. Ideally this hand type might bid 2♠ immediately after 1♦ (if we play constructive weak jumps). If 2♠ over 1♦ would be something else, then 2NT here followed by 3♠ is NF (better hands with spades bid 3♠ over 2♥).

Over 3♣, opener bids 3♦ on a minimum and can bid anything else to force game.

[straube]

 awm, on 2011-April-18, 15:46, said:

Here's an idea that seems to combine a few things together:

... 2♠ = minimum with 4-5♠, NF, willing to play 2♠ opposite a 3-card raise with minimum reverse values
... 2NT = forcing and asking opener to pattern out, usually GF with one possible exception
... 3♣ = shows a weak hand with a fit for one of opener's suits (usually diamonds) and only 4♠
... Else = natural GF

Over 2♠, opener can pass with a 3-card raise and minimum values. Otherwise he has available 2NT (short spades and NF) or 3♦ (very long diams and NF) with minimum hands, and 2NT can be corrected to 3m to play. With a GF opener can bid 3♣ (4th suit) or 3♠ (3451 GF) or 3NT (1453 or the like).

Over 2NT, opener bids 3♣ (1453) or 3♦ (6+♦) or 3♥ (5/6) or 3♠ (3451) or 3NT (2452). There is one hand type where it might be desirable to bid 2NT with less than game values, which is a hand with a long spade suit (6+♠) that expects to make game opposite a minimum reverse with support. Ideally this hand type might bid 2♠ immediately after 1♦ (if we play constructive weak jumps). If 2♠ over 1♦ would be something else, then 2NT here followed by 3♠ is NF (better hands with spades bid 3♠ over 2♥).

Over 3♣, opener bids 3♦ on a minimum and can bid anything else to force game.

I like it.

[Zelandakh]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-18, 08:02, said:

Zel:
What is the "Spade Sign-off" with the "inversion" ?

1D - 1S - 2H - 2S (neg) - 2N (min) - 3S (sign-off)

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-18, 08:02, said:

And with the "inversion", does this mean Responder's 2S! = Clubs, GF ? and the other 3-level bids are still transfers ? ( and 2NT! = weakness [ like Leb ] ) .

No, I was meaning only 2S and 2NT are inverted from standard. ie
2S = weakness
2N = 5+ spades
3any = natural

If you are going to play 2S as forcing here (as the majority of forum posters appear to) then this makes much more sense than 2S nat, forcing and 2NT weakness.

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-18, 08:32, said:

I'm hoping some of this is helpful and not just a mere hijacking by me......

Here is a hand posted back in September, 2010 starting with the same bidding ( http://www.bridgebas...what-was-wrong/ ) :

Zel, how would your "Transfer" auction go ??

---

Call me a Thuddite but 1D - 1S - 2H - 4NT - 6D - P (imps) or 6NT (mp) looks reasonable. I cannot think of a much more suitable hand for a natural 4NT call than this East and 6D over that is automatic.

 awm, on 2011-April-18, 15:46, said:

Here's an idea that seems to combine a few things together:

This looks similar to an idea we have seen before (from Justin?) but in a different auction. It seems quite good although auctions after 3C when Opener has a GF might be cramped, and you cannot sign-off in clubs. Not serious issues but illustrating that even with advanced methods you cannot have everything.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Zelandakh, on 2011-April-19, 04:20, said:

Call me a Thuddite but 1D - 1S - 2H - 4NT - 6D - P (imps) or 6NT (mp) looks reasonable. I cannot think of a much more suitable hand for a natural 4NT call than this East and 6D over that is automatic.

gwnn was the ONLY other "Thuddite" to have the same auction as yours !

The rest argued over the utility of a 3C! rebid by Responder; and then were sidetracked over a side-issue -- as to whether a 2S rebid ( by Responder ) was forcing or not.

[Zelandakh]

I know I am in trouble when I am sitting in gwnn's camp!