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What does obvious shift mean. in laymans terms please
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Obvious shift help
#2
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Posted 2004-September-10, 00:19
Obvious Shift is the suit that the defender wants to attack once third hand discourages the opening lead.
The definition of Obvious Shift varies with different partnership.
Normally, it is the weakest suit in dummy, or it is the defender's suit.
Usually the trump and side suit void (singleton) in dummy is excluded from consideration, also excluded is the 'super-strong' holding like AKQ/KQJ. Declarer's 2nd suit may not be considered as Obvious Shift if there is another plausible alternative.
Having a firm understanding of which suit is Obvious Shift, the discouraging signal at trick one would have an undertone of encouraging shift to the Obvious Shift.
If you are weak in the Obvious Shift and fear that a trick may be lost if partner shift to it, then perhaps you get to encourage at trick one (I don't like a shift)
For more, try this link:
http://www.geocities.com/daniel_neill_2000...viousShift.html
The definition of Obvious Shift varies with different partnership.
Normally, it is the weakest suit in dummy, or it is the defender's suit.
Usually the trump and side suit void (singleton) in dummy is excluded from consideration, also excluded is the 'super-strong' holding like AKQ/KQJ. Declarer's 2nd suit may not be considered as Obvious Shift if there is another plausible alternative.
Having a firm understanding of which suit is Obvious Shift, the discouraging signal at trick one would have an undertone of encouraging shift to the Obvious Shift.
If you are weak in the Obvious Shift and fear that a trick may be lost if partner shift to it, then perhaps you get to encourage at trick one (I don't like a shift)
For more, try this link:
http://www.geocities.com/daniel_neill_2000...viousShift.html
#3
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Posted 2004-September-10, 01:49
hi:)
say u have this hand:
now its preatty obvius that u need to skift suit right??
this is just one exampel u have a lot of obvius shift situasjons:))
kenneth
say u have this hand:
and u lead ace of spade, dummy comes down whit:
now its preatty obvius that u need to skift suit right??
this is just one exampel u have a lot of obvius shift situasjons:))
kenneth
foole me once, shame one you!!
foole me twice, shame on me....!!
foole me twice, shame on me....!!
#4
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Posted 2004-September-10, 03:00
It's a nice tool to determine what suit to lead next time. You can only signal it on opening lead, and only the person behind dummy can signal this way.
As told before, it might depend from partnership which suit that really is, but usually it uses some rules (3 or 4, depending on trump or NT) to determine what suit it really is. In trump it's usually some suit headed by 1 honour, in NT usually the shortest suit.
To signal, you lose some signalling capabilities on the opening lead. If you discourage, you ask for the OS suit (obvious shift suit), if you encourage, you might be asking for the 3rd suit or really encourage in the lead suit
It's up to partner to determine what's the best thing to do in that case.
How you encourage and discourage is independant from the OS principle. If you play high encouraging, then low will ask the OS suit, but you can turn that around without any problems.
As told before, it might depend from partnership which suit that really is, but usually it uses some rules (3 or 4, depending on trump or NT) to determine what suit it really is. In trump it's usually some suit headed by 1 honour, in NT usually the shortest suit.
To signal, you lose some signalling capabilities on the opening lead. If you discourage, you ask for the OS suit (obvious shift suit), if you encourage, you might be asking for the 3rd suit or really encourage in the lead suit
It's up to partner to determine what's the best thing to do in that case.How you encourage and discourage is independant from the OS principle. If you play high encouraging, then low will ask the OS suit, but you can turn that around without any problems.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#5
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Posted 2004-September-10, 03:15
Free, on Sep 10 2004, 04:00 AM, said:
It's a nice tool to determine what suit to lead next time. You can only signal it on opening lead, and only the person behind dummy can signal this way.
As told before, it might depend from partnership which suit that really is, but usually it uses some rules (3 or 4, depending on trump or NT) to determine what suit it really is. In trump it's usually some suit headed by 1 honour, in NT usually the shortest suit.
To signal, you lose some signalling capabilities on the opening lead. If you discourage, you ask for the OS suit (obvious shift suit), if you encourage, you might be asking for the 3rd suit or really encourage in the lead suit It's up to partner to determine what's the best thing to do in that case.
How you encourage and discourage is independant from the OS principle. If you play high encouraging, then low will ask the OS suit, but you can turn that around without any problems.
As told before, it might depend from partnership which suit that really is, but usually it uses some rules (3 or 4, depending on trump or NT) to determine what suit it really is. In trump it's usually some suit headed by 1 honour, in NT usually the shortest suit.
To signal, you lose some signalling capabilities on the opening lead. If you discourage, you ask for the OS suit (obvious shift suit), if you encourage, you might be asking for the 3rd suit or really encourage in the lead suit
It's up to partner to determine what's the best thing to do in that case.How you encourage and discourage is independant from the OS principle. If you play high encouraging, then low will ask the OS suit, but you can turn that around without any problems.
Im used to play it a bit different. when u lead say ♠ace vs 4 ♥as in my exampel obove, partner give suit preference whit his singnals. if he play a high spade he want the highest ranking suit,(tromp and spades are not possible plays now) so in this case its ♦. and if he play a low ♠,he signal for a ♣shift
kenneth
foole me once, shame one you!!
foole me twice, shame on me....!!
foole me twice, shame on me....!!
#6
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Posted 2004-September-10, 03:16
To suppliment Free's point of encouraging signal at trick one:
1. A high spot usually suggests continuation of the suit or dislike of obvious switch.
2. An encouraging signal DOES NOT encourage the shift to third suit.
3. To encourage an unusual shift, you need to play a high honor (unusual ask for unusual) or play your cards in unusual sequences (first high encourage, then a higher to cancel the previous encouraging meaning)
1. A high spot usually suggests continuation of the suit or dislike of obvious switch.
2. An encouraging signal DOES NOT encourage the shift to third suit.
3. To encourage an unusual shift, you need to play a high honor (unusual ask for unusual) or play your cards in unusual sequences (first high encourage, then a higher to cancel the previous encouraging meaning)
#7
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Posted 2004-September-10, 03:28
helium, on Sep 10 2004, 10:15 AM, said:
Free, on Sep 10 2004, 04:00 AM, said:
It's a nice tool to determine what suit to lead next time. You can only signal it on opening lead, and only the person behind dummy can signal this way.
As told before, it might depend from partnership which suit that really is, but usually it uses some rules (3 or 4, depending on trump or NT) to determine what suit it really is. In trump it's usually some suit headed by 1 honour, in NT usually the shortest suit.
To signal, you lose some signalling capabilities on the opening lead. If you discourage, you ask for the OS suit (obvious shift suit), if you encourage, you might be asking for the 3rd suit or really encourage in the lead suit It's up to partner to determine what's the best thing to do in that case.
How you encourage and discourage is independant from the OS principle. If you play high encouraging, then low will ask the OS suit, but you can turn that around without any problems.
As told before, it might depend from partnership which suit that really is, but usually it uses some rules (3 or 4, depending on trump or NT) to determine what suit it really is. In trump it's usually some suit headed by 1 honour, in NT usually the shortest suit.
To signal, you lose some signalling capabilities on the opening lead. If you discourage, you ask for the OS suit (obvious shift suit), if you encourage, you might be asking for the 3rd suit or really encourage in the lead suit
It's up to partner to determine what's the best thing to do in that case.How you encourage and discourage is independant from the OS principle. If you play high encouraging, then low will ask the OS suit, but you can turn that around without any problems.
Im used to play it a bit different. when u lead say ♠ace vs 4 ♥as in my exampel obove, partner give suit preference whit his singnals. if he play a high spade he want the highest ranking suit,(tromp and spades are not possible plays now) so in this case its ♦. and if he play a low ♠,he signal for a ♣shift
kenneth
That's not obvious shift, that's something like Lavinthal, but it also works from time to time
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#8
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Posted 2004-September-10, 03:45
Most good players looks at the all hand before they signal, they will encarauge even with nothing in the suit lead because they know a shift will be worse then continuation, they will discarage if they like the shift.
The Ovious shift "system" is a set of rules to determn which suit is the ovious shift suit, this machanical system is set to prevent misunderstanding when the suit isnt ovious,
For example if suit 1 is AKJ and suit 2 is xxxx and i discurage the opening lead (in a third suit), without a set of rules one player could think i want a lead in the xxxx suit while the other one ment he want a shift to the AKJ suit, the ovious shift set of rules sets the AKJ to be the ovious shift here. and if you want the shift to the xxxx (the unovious) you need to incarage the lead.
The Ovious shift "system" is a set of rules to determn which suit is the ovious shift suit, this machanical system is set to prevent misunderstanding when the suit isnt ovious,
For example if suit 1 is AKJ and suit 2 is xxxx and i discurage the opening lead (in a third suit), without a set of rules one player could think i want a lead in the xxxx suit while the other one ment he want a shift to the AKJ suit, the ovious shift set of rules sets the AKJ to be the ovious shift here. and if you want the shift to the xxxx (the unovious) you need to incarage the lead.
#9
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Posted 2004-September-10, 04:36
Free, on Sep 10 2004, 04:28 AM, said:
helium, on Sep 10 2004, 10:15 AM, said:
Free, on Sep 10 2004, 04:00 AM, said:
It's a nice tool to determine what suit to lead next time. You can only signal it on opening lead, and only the person behind dummy can signal this way.
As told before, it might depend from partnership which suit that really is, but usually it uses some rules (3 or 4, depending on trump or NT) to determine what suit it really is. In trump it's usually some suit headed by 1 honour, in NT usually the shortest suit.
To signal, you lose some signalling capabilities on the opening lead. If you discourage, you ask for the OS suit (obvious shift suit), if you encourage, you might be asking for the 3rd suit or really encourage in the lead suit It's up to partner to determine what's the best thing to do in that case.
How you encourage and discourage is independant from the OS principle. If you play high encouraging, then low will ask the OS suit, but you can turn that around without any problems.
As told before, it might depend from partnership which suit that really is, but usually it uses some rules (3 or 4, depending on trump or NT) to determine what suit it really is. In trump it's usually some suit headed by 1 honour, in NT usually the shortest suit.
To signal, you lose some signalling capabilities on the opening lead. If you discourage, you ask for the OS suit (obvious shift suit), if you encourage, you might be asking for the 3rd suit or really encourage in the lead suit
It's up to partner to determine what's the best thing to do in that case.How you encourage and discourage is independant from the OS principle. If you play high encouraging, then low will ask the OS suit, but you can turn that around without any problems.
Im used to play it a bit different. when u lead say ♠ace vs 4 ♥as in my exampel obove, partner give suit preference whit his singnals. if he play a high spade he want the highest ranking suit,(tromp and spades are not possible plays now) so in this case its ♦. and if he play a low ♠,he signal for a ♣shift
kenneth
That's not obvious shift, that's something like Lavinthal, but it also works from time to time
Sorry think i missunderstud the cuestion, i tought he was asking when a shift was obvius, dint know there was a "obvius shift system"
foole me once, shame one you!!
foole me twice, shame on me....!!
foole me twice, shame on me....!!
#10
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Posted 2004-September-10, 10:37
The Obvious Shift principle is used by some expert pairs - it reduces their defensive capability for the first six months of intensive use as they uncover what is, apparently, not so obvious.
I would not recommend it to anyone in this forum unless they are playing against me.
There are much more important things for beginners/intermediates to be doing in defence.
Paul
I would not recommend it to anyone in this forum unless they are playing against me.
There are much more important things for beginners/intermediates to be doing in defence.
Paul
#11
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Posted 2004-September-10, 12:07
I partly agree with Paul here.
To derive full benefit from this concept requires very hard work and detailed partnership discussion.
It is probably beyond the scope of a beginner/intermediate.
However, the core essence of this carding is to think about the whole hand before giving attitude on single suit. This kind of thinking definitely helps your defence, no matter your stage of experience.
To derive full benefit from this concept requires very hard work and detailed partnership discussion.
It is probably beyond the scope of a beginner/intermediate.
However, the core essence of this carding is to think about the whole hand before giving attitude on single suit. This kind of thinking definitely helps your defence, no matter your stage of experience.
#12
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Posted 2004-September-11, 02:35
laughter, on Sep 10 2004, 01:07 PM, said:
I partly agree with Paul here.
To derive full benefit from this concept requires very hard work and detailed partnership discussion.
To derive full benefit from this concept requires very hard work and detailed partnership discussion.
I Disagree, this system is not for expert as people like to think, its quite the opposite, a pair of experts can look at the all hand and have an understading to which is the ovious shift without a set of rules, using a set of rules is trying to give the intermidiate something that only experts had before, the only need is to remember a simple not long set of rules (which any dummy computer can learn)
just like zar points ment to give rules for the intermidiate to get the expert hand evaluation. (im sure zar points would have been mistakely considered expert tool unless zar made it purpose clear more then once)
#13
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Posted 2004-September-11, 08:19
I actually also agree with Paul. Some people just can't remember a certain set of rules, some mix them up,... With beginners you'll get a lot more mistakes than profits, and even experts still make mistakes playing this!
I play this for a few years, helped us out from time to time, but we got crushed as well because of it. And sometimes one of the 2 players make a mistake determining the OS suit, and then the entire defense is ruined! The player asks the OS suit, the other one plays the wrong suit, nice going...
I think there are many more methods which are good enough to start with. Learn how to walk before you try to run. Learn how to fight in the bidding, so you don't need to defend 50% of the games
Learn how to encourage and discourage, how to discard, and then you'll defend most games perfectly imo. OS is overrated if you ask me.
I play this for a few years, helped us out from time to time, but we got crushed as well because of it. And sometimes one of the 2 players make a mistake determining the OS suit, and then the entire defense is ruined! The player asks the OS suit, the other one plays the wrong suit, nice going...
I think there are many more methods which are good enough to start with. Learn how to walk before you try to run. Learn how to fight in the bidding, so you don't need to defend 50% of the games
Learn how to encourage and discourage, how to discard, and then you'll defend most games perfectly imo. OS is overrated if you ask me.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
#14
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Posted 2004-September-11, 16:16
I also wouldnt recommend putting your time into this, there are many more importent things (and like free i play this for years with no special results)
my point was that learning a set of rules is the opposite of expert skills.
my point was that learning a set of rules is the opposite of expert skills.
#15
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Posted 2004-September-11, 22:16
Obvious Shift had a whole book on it. However, I think intermediates that want to improve would benefit markedly from it.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
#16
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Posted 2004-September-12, 01:42
keylime, on Sep 12 2004, 05:16 AM, said:
Obvious Shift had a whole book on it. However, I think intermediates that want to improve would benefit markedly from it.
I'd have thought the fact that it needs a complete book is an endorsement that Obvious Shift should be expert only - and I'd point out that in my experience it is not used by many experts directly as they come to right conclusions anyway.
However I'd certainly agree with Keylime that intermediates reading the obvious shift book would definitely improve their defence since it highlights how to think as a defender.
So my advice would be read the book but do not play it
p
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