[kenberg]

I'll give you the hand, although it was pick-up and I primarily want to ask about good agreements rather than discuss who should have done what when lacking agreements. I am N.

---

The double was, of course, for a single suited hand. 2♣ was Stayman, 2♥ was to play (and devastating as a lead director against 3NT). A diamond was led, down 1, we get 100.

Some thoughts: After a single suited double I generally play that system is on and XX shows good values. I guess I haven't discussed, or much thought about, what happens when third hand has good values and also has a four card major. Of course in this hand the four card major is nothing to write home about, but I am trying to think in more general terms.

A couple of options:

1. 2♣ is Stayman and also shows the good values (for example, in this hand). The downside is that the Stayman bid may keep us from a good penalty (doubling 2♠ and grabbing our seven tricks gets us a fine result here).

2. Start most good hands with XX and then, if playing for penalties seems wrong, use Lebensohl like bids to get to our best spot.

This situation is not common perhaps, but it is not exactly rare either. As always, your thoughts are solicited.


And if you want to comment on this hand, feel free. As near as I can tell, 3NT is down on a heart lead. I suppose 5♦ makes but I don't envision anyone being there. I suspect that if I were playing with my clone I would be in 3NT off one trick.

[nigel_k]

If playing system on I would always redouble with a good balanced hand. But using Stayman on this hand could have worked quite well because North can double 2♠ with Kxx since partner is marked with values and North has denied four spades already.

However I prefer not to play system on. Once the opponents enter the auction, I want to get into the best position to compete for a partscore and Stayman really isn't very good for that.

[awm]

I think playing "systems on" here is fine. There are a couple things to be said about the actual hand though.

First, there might be an advantage to jumping to 3NT right off as responder. While bidding stayman helps you find a heart fit, your hearts are four little and the overcall might imply that things are not breaking all that well. The direct 3NT jump prevents a lead-directional bid (as happened here!).

Having not done that, I don't understand how south can pass 2♠. Certainly this pass is not forcing (stayman could be based on a weak hand after all) and defending 2♠ undoubled with 25-27 hcp cannot really be right. There are many actions south could have taken (bid 3NT, downgrade to 2NT, double 2♠ regardless of meaning, bid 3♠ to show a stopper and ask about hearts, bid 3♣ natural and forcing); some of these would work better than others but passing really can't be right.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Playing system on is ok, as long as the X does not promises
real values, this was the case.

And if the X does not promises real values, it makes sense
to use XX to show, that the hand belongs to us.

If the X promises values (take your pick with regard to the min
treshhold), than the frequence, that the hand belongs to us
drops, so that the frequency for a value showing XX also drops.
=> In this case, I would recommend to stop playing system on.

Regarding the auction: South knowes, that

#1 the hand belongs to N/S, that N/S have at least 25HCP
#2 the oppoenents are red, and that we are green.

so I suggest, that South should try to go for blood.

You will beat their contract, if it is -1 you are losing
200 points, if it is -2 you are break even - and this assumes
that game is making with 25-27HCP, which is not guranteed, just
likely, and sometimes they go for larger numbers.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Gerben42]

My partner and I play system off here. The point is that with strong hands we would like to know what their suit is before we take any rash decisions, and weak hands can get our own suit in first. Perhaps some fancy responses like Multi-Landy (2♣ both majors, 2♦ one (5card) major, 2M = 4M+5m) would be optimal with less than GF hands in this position but I haven't given it much thought. Will ask my partner about this one

What's relevant here is that we play the XXX convention (first X or XX shows points, 2nd is T/O, 3rd is penalty).

That would lead to the following auction:

---

Given that opener has doubled 2♥ for T/O, South knows that 3NT might have ♥ problems, so he hits 2♠ instead. As usual, getting +500 is another story.

[Phil]

I am slowly drifting into a 'systems off' approach in many of these sequences. I used to always keep it simple with 'systems on' if they made a non-penalty double or a 2♣/3♣ overcall, but it seems like there is a flexibility gain by passing which may show a good hand or a redouble to claim ownership.

[aguahombre]

As a general rule (xfers/1Maj doubled=exception), I don't like to have my whole system changed by a call which takes up none of our bidding room. This double of a strong NT, gives us an additional call, and doesn't interfere with our NT structure.

We get a free redouble to show hands which would be awkward without the helpful double.

XX=one of three bad hands:
----very weak with long clubs (pass the forced 2C)
----very weak with long diamonds (2D/the forced 2c)
----very weak with 5-5 in majors (2H over the forced 2C).

If doubler bids his suit over the forced 2C, and we still wish to compete, we can do so. 2N/2M=clubs, 3C/2M=diamonds. Double of 2M=majors. Double of 2D=Majors and has the right-side effect.

[nigel_k]

aguahombre, on 2011-April-14, 12:07, said:

As a general rule (xfers/1Maj doubled=exception), I don't like to have my whole system changed by a call which takes up none of our bidding room. This double of a strong NT, gives us an additional call, and doesn't interfere with our NT structure.

If they double your 1NT overcall, (1 any)-1NT-(X), presumably you are not still playing system on and redoubling to show values. You will seldom have enough to redouble and will often want to run so it makes sense to use XX for that purpose. So there is no memory requirement if you do the same when they double your 1NT opening. It comes down to what is efficient and I just can't see how it can be efficient to have no real way to get minor suits into the auction at all below the three level, when the hand is very likely to be a competitive partscore battle.

[aguahombre]

nigel_k, on 2011-April-14, 13:53, said:

If they double your 1NT overcall, (1 any)-1NT-(X), presumably you are not still playing system on and redoubling to show values. You will seldom have enough to redouble and will often want to run so it makes sense to use XX for that purpose. So there is no memory requirement if you do the same when they double your 1NT opening. It comes down to what is efficient and I just can't see how it can be efficient to have no real way to get minor suits into the auction at all below the three level, when the hand is very likely to be a competitive partscore battle.

Not sure what you are saying has anything to do with what I posted. I never said redoubling shows values. In either auction --they double pard's NT, or pard overcalls 1NT, I am advocating the use of the redouble for weak 1-minor getout or weak getout with both majors --with the rest of the system on.

[kenberg]

After 1NT-(X=penalty) it's rare for us to want to explore game. After 1NT-(X=single suit) I haven't found it to be at all rare. Playing today, we had 1NT-(2♠), showing spades. The sort of hand that would have started with X if that was needed to show a single suit. I had a 9 count that I had been planning on inviting with, but with KQx in spades, and red versus white, I bid the game. Making 4. This is not rare at all.

The hand in the OP is a little surprising since they are coming in red against white. Further the effectiveness came from fourth hand's heart bid! One at least expects more caution from opponents then. But one way or the other, I think we want to keep the options alive both for doubling and for bidding our own game.

Their having to start their single suit overcalls with a double rather than a direct bid gives us extra room to sort things out. I am seeing a variety of suggestions for taking advantage of this.