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The Path Less Traveled

#1 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2011-April-05, 14:20

Playing in a regional KO, IMPs, V vs NV, you pick up Kxx AK9xxx Kxx 9, after RHO opens 2♠, you bid 3♥, LHO bids 3♠, partner bids 4♥, RHO bids 4♠, and you choose to double, ending the auction.



You lead the ♣9 to dummy's ten, partner's jack, and declarer's ace. Declarer now plays the ♠A, and you follow small, along with everyone else. On the second round of spades, you win the King, dummy playing the queen, and partner pitching the ♣2: You play Upside-Down count and attitude.



What should partner's ♣2 mean?
What about a higher club? A diamond? A heart?

You've taken one trick so far. What do you return now?
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#2 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-April-05, 14:48

Who am I playing with? Can partner think I have a doubleton club and is encouraging me to continue? I think I'll play my top hearts, even though a singleton ♥Q isn't as likely as a small card.

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

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#3 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2011-April-05, 14:49

Partner is an excellent young player (but not a junior).
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#4 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-April-05, 15:00

 mtvesuvius, on 2011-April-05, 14:49, said:

Partner is an excellent young player (but not a junior).


Then I don't know. But a small heart should be the Queen and maybe a small club just means he controls the suit and we shouldn't worry, just cash the hearts? I'm not underleading my hearts without help from partner. Or do you also play upside down preference?

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#5 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-April-05, 15:31

If we dont play small ♥, we are planningto take 1♥+1♠+2♣ hoping declarer to hold something like 6124 because if declarer has 6133 and ♦ J we are screwed big time.

If declarer has ♦ J we are screwed even when he has 6124, lets say we cashed top 2♥, he ruffed, cleared trumps, played ♦ J (we have to cover) ruffed last ♥ and cashed all ♠ squeezing pd in minors....

Too much trouble, i play small ♥ :P I'd play pd for ♥Q rather than ♦ J
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#6 User is offline   Trumpace 

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Posted 2011-April-05, 15:35

Do signals really matter on this hand?

Underleading heart to get CK and club ruff seems to be a reasonable (and probably the only) chance of setting the contract.

If declarer is 6-1-3-3 with the DJ, that seems to be the only defense to beat it.

If declarer is 6-1-2-4 with DJ9 or C86, again it seems like that is the only defense.
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#7 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2011-April-05, 16:20

♦K.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#8 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 01:16

Partner will definitely play me for a singleton club. I can't imagine a hand where I'd lead from ♣9x on this bidding.

Partner's ♣2 is suit preference, meaning "not a heart". If partner had ♥A or ♥K, he would throw an encouraging heart. If he had ♥Q he'd throw a high club. ♣2 covers everything else.

I don't see any need to panic. Declarer opened a weak two and has already shown up with a prime 9-count. If he has ♥Q as well, he doesn't have any other high cards. If he has AJ10xxx Q xxx A8x, he's going to go one down as long as we don't do anything silly.

I don't see what ♦K switch is supposed to achieve, and it risks that declarer does something inspired with AJ10xxx Q xxxx Ax.

I would just cash a top heart and then exit with a trump. If declarer knocks out partner's club and then runs trumps, partner keeps the same number of hearts as dummy, and I keep all my diamonds.

The hand I've given declarer looks like a one-level opening to me, but I'd believe my partner's carding.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#9 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 02:05

Why exactly can you not lead a club from 9x?
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#10 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 02:23

 han, on 2011-April-06, 02:05, said:

Why exactly can you not lead a club from 9x?


Because:
- Partner didn't bid 4♣
- Clubs might be dummy's suit
- Clubs might be declarer's side suit
- 9x is not a particularly safe holding to lead from
- If it's wrong it will often be too late to recover
- If we have a club ruff we will usually still be able to get it after cashing a heart
- A speculative lead like that is inconsistent with the penalty double of 4♠.

Why don't you try to write down a hand, consistent with the bidding, where you would lead a club from 9x?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#11 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 03:08

Kxx AKQxx Kxx 9x

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#12 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 04:00

 gnasher, on 2011-April-06, 01:16, said:

Partner will definitely play me for a singleton club. I can't imagine a hand where I'd lead from ♣9x on this bidding.

Partner's ♣2 is suit preference, meaning "not a heart". If partner had ♥A or ♥K, he would throw an encouraging heart. If he had ♥Q he'd throw a high club. ♣2 covers everything else.

I don't see any need to panic. Declarer opened a weak two and has already shown up with a prime 9-count. If he has ♥Q as well, he doesn't have any other high cards. If he has AJ10xxx Q xxx A8x, he's going to go one down as long as we don't do anything silly.

I don't see what ♦K switch is supposed to achieve, and it risks that declarer does something inspired with AJ10xxx Q xxxx Ax.

I would just cash a top heart and then exit with a trump. If declarer knocks out partner's club and then runs trumps, partner keeps the same number of hearts as dummy, and I keep all my diamonds.

The hand I've given declarer looks like a one-level opening to me, but I'd believe my partner's carding.
Why the queen?, what happens with the Jack? it will also sometimes be the key, even the 10 might one day be the entry. All can be codified, but the problem is, how much is codified with a partner whoom you never talked about it?
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#13 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 04:19

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#14 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 05:20

At first it seems like an easy heart underlead, but pard's signal seems strange. He knows we have AK of hearts (declarer opened weak and showed 2 aces already), so he would definitely have encouraged with ♥Qxx.

Also, why didn't declarer finesse in spades? All this seems fishy. I'll just go gnasher and lead a top heart.

There's a real danger opener has 6124 with singleton ♥Q and opened an off-side weak 2, in which case the heart underlead will give it away.
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#15 User is offline   ulven 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 05:22

 mtvesuvius, on 2011-April-05, 14:20, said:


What should partner's ♣2 mean?
What about a higher club? A diamond? A heart?

You've taken one trick so far. What do you return now?


I'd lead a low H. I expect a discouraging H without A/K/Q and an encouraging H with A/K.
Absence of H discard = Queen.

When partner's Q holds, it's obvious I have a stiff club.

Low club discard is count, suggesting original even number (UDCA). Location of K of clubs is known in the auction.
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#16 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 05:41

 ulven, on 2011-April-06, 05:22, said:

I'd lead a low H. I expect a discouraging H without A/K/Q and an encouraging H with A/K.
Absence of H discard = Queen.

When partner's Q holds, it's obvious I have a stiff club.

Low club discard is count, suggesting original even number (UDCA). Location of K of clubs is known in the auction.


Partner saw declarer's ♠A and ♣A, why wouldn't he ask for a heart with the Queen?

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#17 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 05:41

 Hanoi5, on 2011-April-06, 03:08, said:

Kxx AKQxx Kxx 9x


If you say you'd lead a club from that, I believe you, but can you tell me why you would you lead a club? To me it looks obvious to lead a top heart and then decide how to defend.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#18 User is offline   ulven 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 05:46

 Hanoi5, on 2011-April-06, 05:41, said:

Partner saw declarer's ♠A and ♣A, why wouldn't he ask for a heart with the Queen?


Sometimes we have to choose among "equal alternatives".
The club would convey length in that suit and possibly suggest only 3 hearts, with the low heart for 4H-5C instead of 3H-6C.
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#19 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 08:22

 Fluffy, on 2011-April-06, 04:00, said:

Why the queen?, what happens with the Jack? it will also sometimes be the key, even the 10 might one day be the entry. All can be codified, but the problem is, how much is codified with a partner whoom you never talked about it?


I think that an encouraging discard in the suit is more positive than a suit preference for that suit.

Give that, it would normally be as I suggested in my earlier post: with A or K, he knows it's safe to encourage, so he throws a low heart; with Q, where he's not sure, he gives suit preference in another suit. With the jack maybe he'd throw a middle club.

In this particular situation, declarer is known not to have A or K. Hence an encouraging heart should show the queen, and a suit preference for hearts should show the jack. However, partner obviously doesn't think that.

I don't think we should expect partner to throw a discouraging heart. In general it's unwise to allow declarer to isolate the heart guard in one hand. Even we can both work out that on this particular deal it's safe to do that, I don't think we should change the meanings of all our other signals because of that.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#20 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-06, 08:34

 gnasher, on 2011-April-06, 02:23, said:

Why don't you try to write down a hand, consistent with the bidding, where you would lead a club from 9x?


That doesn't seem so hard. With

Kxx
AQxxxx
Kx
9x

I think a club lead is at least reasonable.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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