[gurgistan]

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When Partner (who is a random unknown with a reasonably filled in profile playing 2/1 and 1430) opens 2♣ my first thought is OMG we have 36hcp between us, is a Grand Slam on?

I play waiting 2♦, he shows ♥. I instigate 1430 and conclude in mounting excitement that he has the other 4 keycards as opposed to 1. I ask for kings and he shows 2. I realize he must be counting the trump king twice. I have the trump Queen. Without further ado, I convert to 7N.

Was converting to 7N wise?

Was bidding at the 7 level compulsory even if not 7N?

[JLOGIC]

Is this MP or imps? I would def just bid 7H at imps as either setting up diamonds with ruffs or ruffing a club might be our 13th trick.

I also wouldn't bid 4N, you can just bid 3H and see what happens, there's no rush.

[Elianna]

gurgistan, on 2011-April-04, 21:37, said:

I play waiting 2♦, he shows ♥. I instigate 1430 and conclude in mounting excitement that he has the other 4 keycards as opposed to 1. I ask for kings and he shows 2. I realize he must be counting the trump king twice. I have the trump Queen. Without further ado, I convert to 7N.

I agree with Justin about the non-need to jump to 4NT, and also would point out that I wouldn't be so sure that partner has 2 kings. He might have none (he might be playing specific kings), and have a overbid for his 2C bid. Or the 2C bid was based on shape, and not HCP, and then we may need to be in 7H not 7NT. Which leads us back to Justin, and the fact that ACE-ASKING IS NOT A TOOL TO DECIDE ON SLAMS (it's to stay out of bad ones).

[MrAce]

Yes, when u had space and bids available to set the ♥ suit as trump and did not, then 4NT is asking the aces, not the keycards. (For example u had 4144 hand with a lot of hcps, and really didnt wanna be confused with keycards, when u do not need his K of ♥, a hand u wld bid slam or grandslam NT depending on aces)

Most people just play it RKCB on the last suit bid, it is wrong if 4NT bidder failed to set the trump while he can imo.

[gurgistan]

I learnt a lot from the responses so far.

Thank you for throwing light on my darkness.

Yes, it is IMPs.

Mr Ace states that as I did not set the trump suit then my 4NT is not 1430 but merely Blackwood. Is this treatment standard?

Would anyone please suggest a full bidding sequence?

The combined hands are:

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[JLOGIC]

gurgistan, on 2011-April-05, 00:29, said:

Mr Ace states that as I did not set the trump suit then my 4NT is not 1430 but merely Blackwood. Is this treatment standard?

No, I don't know of many people who would not take 4N as keycard for hearts.

[barmar]

gurgistan, on 2011-April-05, 00:29, said:

Mr Ace states that as I did not set the trump suit then my 4NT is not 1430 but merely Blackwood. Is this treatment standard?

JLOGIC, on 2011-April-05, 00:38, said:

No, I don't know of many people who would not take 4N as keycard for hearts.

What MrAce describes is what most experts recommend, but I wouldn't expect a random partner to play it without discussion.

Note that even if you play that treatment, it only appliesto responder when the auction allows him to make a forcing bid that shows trump support (e.g. Jacoby 2NT, or raising to 3 after a 2♣ opener).

[TWO4BRIDGE]

gurgistan, on 2011-April-05, 00:29, said:

Would anyone please suggest a full bidding sequence?

The combined hands are:

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Strong 2-suiters are difficult to describe by opening 2C first.
I realize partner didn't want a 1S passout, but having opened 2C, why did he show Hearts first instead of Spades?
Also, with a 5 card diam suit w/2 of the top 3, why not show it with a 3D bid over 2C ?

So let's take the 2C bidder showing Sp first:
2C - 3D!
3S - 4S ( partner is not going to pass when you have shown a good hand; and better if the strong hand goes RKC ).
4NT - 5H ( 2 -sQ )
6H! ( 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask; by-passing the K-ask step ) - ??

6S = no 3rd Rnd Ht Ctrl
7S = doubleton Ht
6NT = Ht Q
7H = Ht Q J (..)

After:     - 6NT
7S
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
All roads lead to the grand with this deal:
Even with showing Hts first, Opener should reach 7H.
Even opening 1S first, 7S should be reached after a 2D! ( 2/1 GF )

[MrAce]

gurgistan, on 2011-April-05, 00:29, said:

Mr Ace states that as I did not set the trump suit then my 4NT is not 1430 but merely Blackwood. Is this treatment standard?

I don't know if it is a standart treatment ot not. Thats why i said "IMO = in my opinion"

Common bridge logic tells me it is the correct way to play it though. Because i have seen some cases where people who played ALWAYS RKCB on last suit, regardelss of the oportunity to set the trump, scratched their head and try to solve a puzzle where pd's trump King did not matter to them. Its a rare situation but it comes. Why solve puzzle when we can make it easy for ourselves ?

[aguahombre]

Opening 2C with hands like this works out to break even, or even gains on occasion. The unfortunate result --for discussion or learning---is that people will keep doing it until their bad consequences finally outnumber the good ones they remember.

It would be futile to recommend a reasonable auction on this hand after a 1S opening bid, since this particular hand might well be a problem; and the 2C then 2H rebid got the partnership to the right strain.

A forcing club system would require a 1C opening. I think many people who open 2C on two-suiters are confusing the two styles.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2011-April-05, 18:41

[ggwhiz]

7nt looks good enough that it deserves to survive but especially at imps, 7♥ looks much better if pard had say, ♠ATxx, ♥AKJxx, ♦x ♣AKQ

I don't understand the 2♥ call at all and after 2♠ instead would likely get to 7♠ for a natural tragedy.

I agree with the 2♦ response but having the game force on, use the extra bidding room.

[barmar]

MrAce, on 2011-April-05, 15:57, said:

Its a rare situation but it comes. Why solve puzzle when we can make it easy for ourselves ?

Because it's easier to remember that 4NT is always RKCB, than try to figure out whether there was an opportunity to set trumps before using BW.

[Quantumcat]

One problem with agreeing the above is that there may be times when you don't have the right hand for KC and just want to suggest to partner that we have the values and if he wants to be captain he can, or we might have the right hand to take control. Agreeing the above means you can't hint to partner that he might want to be captain, because agreeing the trump suit forcingly only means that we don't want to use plain Blackwood.

[gurgistan]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-05, 12:28, said:

Strong 2-suiters are difficult to describe by opening 2C first.
I realize partner didn't want a 1S passout, but having opened 2C, why did he show Hearts first instead of Spades?
Also, with a 5 card diam suit w/2 of the top 3, why not show it with a 3D bid over 2C ?

Two reasons:
1. I am not particularly comfortable responding to 2♣ openers.
2. Less than 10 hands in with an unknown partner, decided to KISS (keep it simple, stupid).

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-April-05, 12:28, said:

So let's take the 2C bidder showing Sp first:
2C - 3D!
3S - 4S ( partner is not going to pass when you have shown a good hand; and better if the strong hand goes RKC ).
4NT - 5H ( 2 -sQ )
6H! ( 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask; by-passing the K-ask step ) - ??

6S = no 3rd Rnd Ht Ctrl
7S = doubleton Ht
6NT = Ht Q
7H = Ht Q J (..)

After:     - 6NT
7S
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
All roads lead to the grand with this deal:
Even with showing Hts first, Opener should reach 7H.
Even opening 1S first, 7S should be reached after a 2D! ( 2/1 GF )

I am very interested in the 3rd Rnd Ht Ctrl ask. I have never come across 3rd Rnd Ctrl asks before. You bypass 5N because knowing that you possess all four kings is less important than knowing you have five winners in hearts, yes?

Is this a common agreement between established partnerships?

It seems very clever. With the right sort of hand a grand slam could be reached even missing a side suit king!

[Zelandakh]

gurgistan, on 2011-April-12, 13:56, said:

I am very interested in the 3rd Rnd Ht Ctrl ask. I have never come across 3rd Rnd Ctrl asks before. You bypass 5N because knowing that you possess all four kings is less important than knowing you have five winners in hearts, yes?

Is this a common agreement between established partnerships?

Go to Bridge with Dan and scroll down to More Stuff. Then follow the link to "Kantar's Roman Keycard system". The zip file contains the answers to this question and many others.

[gurgistan]

Zelandakh, on 2011-April-13, 11:02, said:

Go to Bridge with Dan and scroll down to More Stuff. Then follow the link to "Kantar's Roman Keycard system". The zip file contains the answers to this question and many others.

Zelandakh, you have done me a great service. Thank you.