[Ailleacht]

Hello All,
I was playing in a national teams competition over the weekend. We were playing 4 board games and the team we played against had just got 2 good scores. I was the opener, east. Pass 1NT from south Pass from west and after a delay Pass from north. I thought fair enough you are not going to bid and I tapped my pass card that was on the table to finish the auction. Or so I though. North woke up. He said 3NT and then proceeded to take out the 3 NT bid. I called the TD and explained what happened. The TD was not very sure and believed North despite me describing what had happened. North had about 12 points and 4 hearts to the AQJx. he did not use Staymen. He tried to say that the Pass card came out separately. It did not. he passed and I tapped to indicate the auction was over. he had paused long enough and well if you are not going to bid, fair enough. then he tried to bid. i was not happy with the ruling. North was being believed by TD and my partner more or less said forget it just play on. It was late. The TD then said OK and because my partner said play on that finished it. I queried the call after the session (this was the last round) and on the sunday at the end of the competition. i was then told that until the lead is on the table anyone can still bid. I dont think it is fair because....

If someone is non vul V vul and had 11 points plus they can pass and see if they can trap the opponents to make an over call. And if the opponents pass they can then bid 3NT.

What do you think? Was it fair? Was it right?

[blackshoe]

Whether tapping the table or bidding cards constitutes a pass depends on the bidding box regulations in force, which in turn depends on where you are. Which is why we ask posters to say where they are in the "description" line (second line of the header) when posting.

In every jurisdiction of which I'm aware, tapping does not constitute a pass. So you would do well in future to take the extra half second to put out the pass card when you want to pass. In this case, though, whether you had passed is not relevant to the ruling.

There are four players at the table. The TD should have asked the other two what they saw.

A call made can be changed if it was not the player's intended call, provided his partner has not subsequently called*. If the player intended the call at the time he made it, even if only briefly, then if he attempts to change it, his LHO may accept the change. If the LHO does not accept the change, it is cancelled. Law 25 is the relevant law.

*If the auction ends before the player's partner has a chance to call (as it would here) the player has until the opening lead is faced to change his unintended call. This does not mean that "anyone can still bid", nor that calls can be changed without involving the director.

[rduran1216]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-04, 06:54, said:

Whether tapping the table or bidding cards constitutes a pass depends on the bidding box regulations in force, which in turn depends on where you are. Which is why we ask posters to say where they are in the "description" line (second line of the header) when posting.

In every jurisdiction of which I'm aware, tapping does not constitute a pass. So you would do well in future to take the extra half second to put out the pass card when you want to pass. In this case, though, whether you had passed is not relevant to the ruling.

There are four players at the table. The TD should have asked the other two what they saw.

A call made can be changed if it was not the player's intended call, provided his partner has not subsequently called*. If the player intended the call at the time he made it, even if only briefly, then if he attempts to change it, his LHO may accept the change. If the LHO does not accept the change, it is cancelled. Law 25 is the relevant law.

*If the auction ends before the player's partner has a chance to call (as it would here) the player has until the opening lead is faced to change his unintended call. This does not mean that "anyone can still bid", nor that calls can be changed without involving the director.

Everyone where I play either taps, or picks up pass cards, or says pass when they are the third person to pass. Its extremely common. Not sure about the specifics of the rules in that spot though

[blackshoe]

"Extremely common" is not the same as "in accordance with the rules".

People take this kind of shortcut all the time. Most often, it doesn't matter. When it does matter, though, one should not expect to get a favorable ruling if one has not followed the rules.

In the ACBL, tapping the table, saying "pass", or picking up your bidding cards are none of them legal calls using bidding boxes.

[nige1]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-04, 11:23, said:

"Extremely common" is not the same as "in accordance with the rules". People take this kind of shortcut all the time. Most often, it doesn't matter. When it does matter, though, one should not expect to get a favorable ruling if one has not followed the rules. In the ACBL, tapping the table, saying "pass", or picking up your bidding cards are none of them legal calls using bidding boxes.

Agree with Blackshoe. IMO, a director should consider a procedural penalty for such laziness. As Blackshoe says, however, here it should make no difference. The director may find it had to believe that 3NT was unintended because "Pass" and "3NT" are widely separated in most bidding-boxes.

[straube]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-04, 06:54, said:

Whether tapping the table or bidding cards constitutes a pass depends on the bidding box regulations in force, which in turn depends on where you are. Which is why we ask posters to say where they are in the "description" line (second line of the header) when posting.

In every jurisdiction of which I'm aware, tapping does not constitute a pass. So you would do well in future to take the extra half second to put out the pass card when you want to pass. In this case, though, whether you had passed is not relevant to the ruling.

There are four players at the table. The TD should have asked the other two what they saw.

A call made can be changed if it was not the player's intended call, provided his partner has not subsequently called*. If the player intended the call at the time he made it, even if only briefly, then if he attempts to change it, his LHO may accept the change. If the LHO does not accept the change, it is cancelled. Law 25 is the relevant law.

*If the auction ends before the player's partner has a chance to call (as it would here) the player has until the opening lead is faced to change his unintended call. This does not mean that "anyone can still bid", nor that calls can be changed without involving the director.

So isn't the issue whether the pass card fell out of the bidding box or not? It seems like not. The fact that he didn't use Stayman seems to support the op's position. Too bad his other opponent and partner didn't state what they thought happened.

[Elianna]

nige1, on 2011-April-04, 11:35, said:

Agree with Blackshoe. IMO, a director should consider a procedural penalty for such laziness. As Blackshoe says, however, here it should make no difference. The director may find it had to believe that 3NT was unintended because "Pass" and "3NT" are widely separated in most bidding-boxes.

Not if the guy was reaching for the stop bid.

Of course, since OP doesn't say that the guy claimed that, I guess it's not what happened.

[Free]

There is a nice separate forum for this sort of questions: Simple rulings

[mrdct]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-04, 11:23, said:

In the ACBL, tapping the table, saying "pass", or picking up your bidding cards are none of them legal calls using bidding boxes.

Who cares? One thing we know for certain is that this did not occur in the ACBL because according to my calendar there were no "national events" on in ACBL-land last weekend.

In the absence of specific regulations of their own, most jurisdictions would follow the WBF rules which state "if a player whose pass will conclude the auction removes his bidding cards from the table he is deemed to have passed" so clearly the more authoritative body contemplates the practicalities of bidding boxes where, as others have noted, it is routine for methods other than selecting a fresh pass card from the box to be employed.

Moreover, surely the intent of a player in the pass-out seat is relevant here and a tap on the pass card clearly indicates that intent. It's not dissimilar to where the opps are having a long auction and you are running low on pass cards so you tap, wave, recycle or steal.

The other matter here is whether or not north, if we are to conclude that east hasn't passed, is able to substitute his pass for a 3NT bid. To bid 3NT requires one to pick-up almost half of the stack of bidding cards and could never be confused with picking a pass card. If I was the TD here, I would not buy that the pass came out separately to the 3NT stack - it is simply not possible.

[Ailleacht]

Hello All,
thanks for the comments. Have been talking about it with some of the TD's in my club.

If the auction ends before the player's partner has a chance to call (as it would here) the player has until the opening lead is faced to change his unintended call.

This is what the overall TD confirmed on the Sunday. It just seems a little unfair to me. It is not right. The pass was placed down and that is when I tapped the card. He tried to explain that it came out in the one movement. I saw the pass was down and i tapped. (I will not do it anymore!!!!) He did not give out to me about bidding out of turn. He also made no effort to use the stop card as etiquette requires.

In summary I think the person was probably tired. I do not think there was any intention to "trap" me into bidding.

And of course they made 3NT and my other pair went down 1. And of course we lost the match 25-0. A disaster....

[blackshoe]

mrdct, on 2011-April-05, 05:04, said:

Who cares? One thing we know for certain is that this did not occur in the ACBL because according to my calendar there were no "national events" on in ACBL-land last weekend.

I care, or I wouldn't have said it. You don't like it? Who cares?

mrdct, on 2011-April-05, 05:04, said:

In the absence of specific regulations of their own, most jurisdictions would follow the WBF rules which state "if a player whose pass will conclude the auction removes his bidding cards from the table he is deemed to have passed" so clearly the more authoritative body contemplates the practicalities of bidding boxes where, as others have noted, it is routine for methods other than selecting a fresh pass card from the box to be employed.

Assumption on your part is not fact. And before you jump on that, let me say that my reference to ACBL regs was by way of example, not an assumption that this occurred in the ACBL.

mrdct, on 2011-April-05, 05:04, said:

Moreover, surely the intent of a player in the pass-out seat is relevant here and a tap on the pass card clearly indicates that intent. It's not dissimilar to where the opps are having a long auction and you are running low on pass cards so you tap, wave, recycle or steal.

I got back into bridge after a long hiatus when the US Navy sent me to England. Much to my surprise, a tap on the table there meant "alert". I was even more surprised when I got back to the States and found out that here it means something else. IAC, it is not obvious to me that a tap always means "pass". And even if it does, that doesn't make it a legal way of doing that.

mrdct, on 2011-April-05, 05:04, said:

The other matter here is whether or not north, if we are to conclude that east hasn't passed, is able to substitute his pass for a 3NT bid. To bid 3NT requires one to pick-up almost half of the stack of bidding cards and could never be confused with picking a pass card. If I was the TD here, I would not buy that the pass came out separately to the 3NT stack - it is simply not possible.

As someone else pointed out, he may have been reaching for the stop card. The TD will need to investigate. OTOH, the OP suggests that pass was put out, and then some time later he woke up and tried to change it to 3NT. If he'd been reaching for the stop card, and pass fell on the table, why did he not then try to complete his "skip bid"? Answer: because that's not what he was doing; he was passing. So I would not allow the change either.

[rduran1216]

this violates the common sense law.

ACBL laws are in general a joke, and people who whine and try to uphold the letter rather than the intent are just losers anyway. We've had this happen at our club, when visitors come in, play poorly, and try to gain an edge on what the rules can give them.

Casual ways of passing in the passout seat are there because its a waste of time and a pain in the ass to pull another pass card out. If someone took advantage of your nonchalantness, they're just being a jackass, regardless of what the other directors tell you. OTOH, if the person had a 3NT bid in his hand, then you dont have much of a leg to stand on.

[blackshoe]

So I gather that your position is that if you don't like a particular rule, you don't have to follow it. Yeah, that makes sense.

The 'common sense law' with which I'm familiar reads "common sense isn't common".

[Free]

Whatever the fuzz about acbl, fact is that the pass was intended so it can't be changed. It definitely wasn't a slip of the hand or some similar reason that would allow to correct the call, and it doesn't matter if we already passed or not.

[nige1]

Again, I agree with Blackshoe and Free.
Shome mishtake surely?

[mrdct]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-05, 10:51, said:

I got back into bridge after a long hiatus when the US Navy sent me to England. Much to my surprise, a tap on the table there meant "alert". I was even more surprised when I got back to the States and found out that here it means something else. IAC, it is not obvious to me that a tap always means "pass". And even if it does, that doesn't make it a legal way of doing that.

In this case it was not a "tap on the table" it was a tap on a pre-existing pass card which makes a big difference imho.

[manudude03]

I would assume a tap when it's your turn is a pass, and a tap when its RHO's turn is an alert (and yes, an alert tap should be on the table, not the bidding cards). If you alert (or tap) on LHO or CHO's turn, turn the music off .

[blackshoe]

Around here, people tap wherever they feel like. Sometimes it's on the bidding cards, sometimes it's on the table directly. Sometimes they just pick up their bidding cards, no tap.

Personally, this seems to me like a situation in which Law 72A is applicable. Particularly if you read "laws" in that law as "laws and regulations". I don't have much empathy for those who act as if the laws (and regulations) don't apply to them.

[barmar]

manudude03, on 2011-April-06, 19:49, said:

(and yes, an alert tap should be on the table, not the bidding cards).

Shouldn't it be on the Alert strip in the bidding box?

[kenberg]

What I get out of this: It all depends on whether the play of the pass card was intended or not. Technology still does not allow a brain scan, so somehow there has to be a fairly mechanical way of deciding this. I have taken the wrong card out of a bidding box. I think it may even, at times, have touched the table before I realized my error. But I would think that if it is placed on the table, lies there for a bit, and the player does not say "oops" or some equivalent, the inference should be that he intended to place the pass card on the table. If he had 12 points and they are playing anything other than a very weak NT, no doubt he did not intend to pass 1NT, but that applies only if he was aware of the 1NT bid. A guy can be tired, be unaware of the auction, maybe he is thinking an opponent opened 1NT, he can miscount his hand, he can have a king hidden somewhere, many possibilities, and intend to pass. It's at least possible that the pass was intended and if the pass card has been sitting on the table for a while it seems like this should be a reasonable default assumption. Allowing for mechanical error is one thing, allowing for totally oblivious behavior is another.