[straube]

unfav imps I open a strong club with void Axxxx Kx AKJxxx

The auction goes 1C (1S) 2D* 3S ?

2D by partner shows 5-7 hcps and six diamonds or five diamonds unbalanced.

I'm thinking...

dbl-would show 5 or 6 hearts and deny a super-fit (but not a fit) in diamonds. It would not promise clubs but some tolerance could be inferred.
4C-would be forcing under the general "rule" that jumps, cues or any new suit starting at 3H is forcing

Am I right so far?

Partner has KQxxx void xxxxxx Qx

If I pass, he can double for penalty because a hand that is only 5-7 cannot double at this level for takeout
If I double, partner can convert the double to penalty.

I'm thinking that pass is the winner here because we have only half the deck and probably no 9-cd fit. Double seems reasonable, but partner may pass the double and I have no spades or extra values to assist in defending.

What would you do? Pass? Double? 4C?

[mike777]

for starters I hate, really hate 2d by pard and am not sure about 1c from you .....

in any case 2d causes the most problems.

[straube]

mike777, on 2011-March-22, 21:24, said:

for starters I hate, really hate 2d by pard and am not sure about 1c from you .....

in any case 2d causes the most problems.

Partner made a systemic bid. Pass by him would create a GF. His other option would be to dbl to show 0-4 any or 5-7 and 2+ spades with no better bid. Our defense works well most of the time, but like any, has hands that aren't well-suited.

I also made a systemic bid. My next best option would be to open 1H, but partner will never play me for something this strong.

[Free]

Like Mike I'm not so fond of the strong 1♣ opening, and I really hate the systemic 2♦ bid.

[mike777]

1) you cannot force one club


2) and then force 2d...that is total crap system.


Playing old strong club I open 1h...no problem yet

-----------------


Lets back up

opening 1c is a weak part of system so dont open 1c
set up system to NOT NOt open 1c.....dont open 1c on any excuse!

see straube comment.
--------------

most if not all think opening 1c is best part so open 1c super often........

[gwnn]

I hate 1♣ and I hate 2♦ too! Two suiters should almost always be bid out naturally. Also just because you have 7 hcp doesn't mean you shouldn't look at your hand.

[straube]

It's useful to know everyone hates the starting conditions. I'd appreciate it though if someone could see there way through to answering the questions I posed.

[gwnn]

Double can't show 5-6 hearts. It's way too restrictive.

Double should show more or less the same shapes as

1♠-2♦-3♠-x.

[straube]

gwnn, on 2011-March-23, 14:25, said:

Double can't show 5-6 hearts. It's way too restrictive.

Double should show more or less the same shapes as

1♠-2♦-3♠-x.

I agree it should show the same shapes as that sequence, but I thought that sequence showed 5-6 hearts. If it could show 4 hearts, then we would lose out on the 5-3 heart fits. If it promised hearts and clubs, we would lose out when advancer had only hearts.

[akhare]

How about:

X = Takeout oriented with 4+♥, or too strong for any other bid (invites 3N)
4♣ = ♣+♥ at least 5-5
4♦ = ♦ support
4♥ = Single suited
4♠ = ♦ support, slam interest
4N = Specific A ask?
5♣ = Single suited

The idea is to use a similar scheme if responder had shown ♣s..

[straube]

akhare, on 2011-March-23, 16:13, said:

How about:

X = Takeout oriented with 4+♥, or too strong for any other bid (invites 3N)
4♣ = ♣+♥ at least 5-5
4♦ = ♦ support
4♥ = Single suited
4♠ = ♦ support, slam interest
4N = Specific A ask?
5♣ = Single suited

The idea is to use a similar scheme if responder had shown ♣s..

That's really not bad.

[straube]

I asked Bergen about whether 1S (2D) 3S dbl promised 5+ hearts

"I do NOT agree + have never even heard of that.

This is a difficult auction for the overcalling side.
In my opinion, the only rational meanings for the double is
A. a Responsive Dbl OR
B. a Thrump Dbl

In either case, advancer should not have a singleton spade

If A, responder's textbook hand is xx AKxx Axxxx xx

If B, responder can easily have a nice club fit,
oping for 3NT.
An example might be xx Axx KJxxxx Axx

The partnership must decide.
As expected, my preference is "B"
I do believe that is how Meckwell play it."

So I asked about the specific auction in question and whether my double should promise 5 hearts.

"As in the other case, that is a new one on me.
It's not crazy, though."

So what would he bid with my hand?

"With your void, passing would not occur to me.
A void in the oppon suit has magical properties.
Opposite as little as xxx x AJxxx 10xcx
6C is excellent.

At this vul, I think there is an excellent chance that if we belong in 4H, they will bid 4S.
Therefore, I would be happy to bid a natural 4C.
If dbl of 3S was Thrump,
4C should show C + H"

I asked whether I should open a strong club or start with a suit. He said that Meckwell would open 1C.

"1C is clear to me.
I hate over-strength 2C bids in Precision.
This "Don't open a Precision Club or a Standard 2C with a 2-suiter is BS"

[straube]

akhare, on 2011-March-23, 16:13, said:

How about:

X = Takeout oriented with 4+♥, or too strong for any other bid (invites 3N)
4♣ = ♣+♥ at least 5-5
4♦ = ♦ support
4♥ = Single suited
4♠ = ♦ support, slam interest
4N = Specific A ask?
5♣ = Single suited

The idea is to use a similar scheme if responder had shown ♣s..

This mirrors our 1D (3S) defense using Thrump doubles. I like it. The one tweak might be that showing your independent suit at the 5 level ought to show both a good suit and shortness in spades. With a more balanced hand, one could double asking for 3N with a stopper or conversion with length and no stopper.

We could also use this scheme for say 1C P 1H (3S) where 1H is our generic semipositive.

When we're in a GF, we don't encounter this problem because we have a forcing pass.

dbl-asks for a stopper
4m-5H/5m
4H-6H
4m-both minors
5m-single-suited minor

[Free]

straube, on 2011-March-23, 11:13, said:

I'd appreciate it though if someone could see there way through to answering the questions I posed.

straube, on 2011-March-22, 21:16, said:

What would you do?

I'll answer this one: I would avoid this problem by not opening 1♣.

[dake50]

Agree 1C. Unlike 1H openers, I don't have a rebid to show
5-5 +6Controls +S-void.
So my only way to get reasonable cooperation
is open 1-forcing(I actually open this 1D-F1)
and make my 5-5, S-void rebids.
Agree 2D shows something near 5-7 not much in spades
(Ax(+) to later Q-bid; <=Jxx else).
Let opener X to suggest penalty bonanza if S-winners after pass.
Similar to straube rebids. Get 5-5 in with 4C.
Get S-Q-bid in - repeat if convenient to show void.
Define a 5S bid - what is jump Q-bid? Void +5-5 +6+controls?

[hrothgar]

Unlike many other posters, I don't have a strong objection to the 1♣ opening.

I understand the desire to anticipate a competitive auction and start a natural bidding sequence.
However, 1♣ isn't unthinkable...

The bid that I hate is 2♦...

Partner was sitting on 5 spades to the KQ and preferred to show his diamond "suit"...
I think that there is something to be said for suggesting penalties against the opponent's Spade contract
(especially in this day and age when everyone and their dog will psyche a spade suit over a strong club opening)

[chasetb]

I don't like the 1♣ bid - move the K♦ to the Heart suit and I would say go for it (I'm obviously not Meckstroth or Rodwell). I'm a little surprised that partner wouldn't play you to be that strong if you opened 1♥ and not 1♣. I'm not too happy with partner's systemic 2♦ bid on that hand, but that seems to be it. I would DBL 3♠, but definitely not like it.

[gwnn]

Straube, I'm wondering why didn't you also ask Bergen about the 2♦ bid you were defending?

[FrancesHinden]

I don't understand how double by opener shows hearts (or at any rate is take-out) but double by responder is penalties. How are you going to defend when opener has a penalty double?

[straube]

That's a good question.

For us, 1C (1S) 2C is a semipositive takeout of spades so I was suggesting that after 1C (1S) 2D (3S) P P dbl as takeout doesn't make a lot of sense.

I guess then we give up a penalty double by opener.