[Free]

Say you play a 2♣ opening as 6+♣ or (5+♣ with a 4 card M), no 5 cards M possible, and around 10-15 or 9-14. What would you use as response scheme?

What I need:
- a full relay structure which can bid most hands without passing by 3NT (except extreme distributions like 7-4's or so)
- a way to find out if opener is minimum or maximum
- a way to find out if opener has a 4 card Major or not, without passing 3♣ if he doesn't
[EDIT] - the possibility to signoff in 2M

Tnx.

[MickyB]

Hm lets see...You could have 2D as relay, then

2H C+S
2S C single suiter
2N+ C+H

but then you are resolving quite high. Then 2H would have to be asking 'do you have a major', I don't know whether it would be better to go past 3C with a singlesuited max or not. 2C:2N could be a puppet to 3C, then any bid is natural invitational, with 2C:3C also natural invitational.

You might want to look at Berkowitz-Cohen's structure on Keylime's site.

http://www.geocities...ision/chap6.doc

[whereagles]

Hum.. you'll need a 2D relay, I guess

2C 2D
2H = 54. Now 2S starts relays, and 2NT/3C invitational but NF
2S = 54. Again 2NT/3C NF, and 3D starting relays
2NT = 6 cards max, 3C relays (no need for club signoff - max opener means GF auction)
3C = 6 cards min, 3D relays
3D = 64 max, 3H relays
3H = 65. 3S relays
3S = 65. 4D relays (4C is sign-off)
3NT = solid 7-card suit. 4C relays

Escapes from relay bids show invitational hands and are NF. Now you just have to polish the shape relays and denial cues.

This being said, I must say I hate the precision 2C opener But with 5-card majors, it's a necessary evil. (WIth 4-card majors you can dump everything into the 1D opener.)

[hrothgar]

Can't be done without multiple asking bids. However, if you're willing to have multiple asks, the following should work

2♣ - 2NT = range ask

3♣ = minimum
3♦+ = maximum, 6+ clubs
3M = Maximum, 5 clubs and a 4 cards in the other major

2♣ - 2♥ = Resolve shape with a 4 card major

2♠ = 4 Hearts
2N = 6 Clubs
3♣+ = 5 Clubs, 4 Hearts high shortage

2♣ - 2♦ = Resolve shape with a 6 card club suit

2♥ = 5 clubs and a 4 card major
2♠ = High shortage or 6223/6232

[Free]

hrothgar, on Sep 6 2004, 08:05 PM, said:

2♣ - 2♥ = Resolve shape with a 4 card major

2♠ = 4 Hearts
2N = 6 Clubs
3♣+ = 5 Clubs, 4 Hearts high shortage

Tnx for the nice structure, but euhm, did you make one of your famous Richard-typo's here? Shouldn't 2♠ be 4 ♠s?

Btw, this structure doesn't allow us to stop in a Major at 2-level right? Isn't that also important? I really have no experience at all with such 5+♣ openings, and need advice

[hrothgar]

Free, on Sep 6 2004, 10:58 PM, said:

Btw, this structure doesn't allow us to stop in a Major at 2-level right?  Isn't that also important?  I really have no experience at all with such 5+♣ openings, and need advice 

Stopping in 2M was not one of your original design criteria. [Please note, I'm not sure that a shape showing relay is practical after a precision type 2♣ opening)

If we add this, how about

2N = Range ask

2♥ = Game force opposite single suited with minor

Pass = Hearts and Clubs
2♠ = Spades and Clubs
2N = 6223/6232 shape OR High shortage
3C = middle shortage
...

2♦ = relay (game force opposite two suited with major)

2♥ = Clubs and Hearts
2♠ = Single suited with clubs (2NT = G.F. Relay, 3♣ = to play)
2N+ = Clubs and Spades, resolving

[irdoz]

This is outline of the method I use in regular partnership...

2d is either weak hand with hearts (or 5+hearts and 3+spades) or most game invite hands
2h is artificial game force relay
2nt is relay to 3c (weak or to show other hand types)
3d/3h/3s = single suited game invite hands


We found in matchpoints having a method to try and wrinkle to 2 in a major in matchpoints was important in many hands.

After 2c-2d then

2h = min with h tolerance (Responder bids 2s/2nt/3c with GI hand and 3c with weak h hand)

2s = 4 spades (min or max) (Responder bids 3c or 3h NF with 6 hearts with weak h hand and 2nt/3s with GI hand)

2nt = no 4M max (Responder bids 3c with weak hand, other bids belwo 3nt are stopper show)

3c = no 4M min (Responder may bid 3h with 6h, else passes)

3h = 4h max (Responder passes or bids 3nt/4h; 3s is stopper show - implies d concern)


After 2c-2h then

2S - shows 2 suited hand (5+cl/4+ other suit)
2nt relays for second suit Answer = SUIT BELOW etc.

2nt - shows 6322 hand
3c begins stopper ask
3d asks 3 card suit (3nt = d)
3h asks min or max (3s = min)

3C - shows 3 suited hand with short diamonds (6331 or 544)
3d relays for shape

3D - shows 3 suited hand with short hearts (6331 or 544)
3h relays for shape

3H - shows 3 suited hand with short spades (6331 or 544)
3s relays for shape

3S - shows 7+ cl broken suit

3nt - shows 7+ cl semi-solid suit

We have found this works well in matchpoints..

[keylime]

This is the Cohen-Berkowitz schedule which we use in its entirety.

2C-2D:

2H - one or both majors (2S asks where 2NT = hearts, 3C = spades)
2S - non min hand with possible shortage (2NT asks and suit bids are pinpointed shortages or xfer shortages)
2NT - balanced hand with no shortage, min
3C - min hand with clubs
3D - max hand with 5 ♦ and 6 or more ♣
3H/S - 5 card majors with 6 or more clubs
3NT = solid clubs, no outside stop

2C - 2H/S = Forcing one, five cards or more.

2C - 2NT = forces 3C for signoff or two suited GF hand (3D = D+H, 3H = H+S, 3S = D+S)

2C - 3C = forces 3D for signoff or start of single suited slam try

[jtfanclub]

Free, on Sep 6 2004, 01:08 PM, said:

Say you play a 2♣ opening as 6+♣ or (5+♣ with a 4 card M), no 5 cards M possible, and around 10-15 or 9-14. What would you use as response scheme?

I use the old fashioned method, where 2C-2D-2S-2NT/3C/3D/3S is invitational, and 2C-2D-2S-3H is a slam try second level inquiry.

I'm sure you know it better than I do.

Why don't tell us what you think are the biggest problems with it, so we know what you're most worried about?

[Free]

I was thinking of something like:
2♦ relay (weak with long ♣ and a 4 card M or inv or GF, to find a good spot or investigate for slam, this should become clear after some bids):
2M = 4 card M (step 1 is relay for entire shape)
2NT+ = singlesuited with ♣, immediate showing exact shape using symmetric relay -> this might get us too high if opener is minimum

2M natural and doubts about making it forcing or not (I guess not, because of the relay we can't stop in 2M anymore otherwise).

2NT and higher bids are available (but supporting is quite preemptive ).

I have doubts about using 2NT as an invitational relay (responses: 3♣ any minimum - which might lose our fit in M, 3♦ max and singlesuited ♣, 3M max and 4 card M) or include invitational hands in the 2♦ relay and show minimum or maximum after the next relay (and also using 2NT and 3♣ for the singlesuited hands). This last option however gets us too high in the relaybiddings imo.


I'm also wondering if it's wise to use a 2♣ opening with a 5 card M. Can't you make it just easy on yourself by opening 1M, and include the longer minor in the relayscheme (which I've already done btw )? Perhaps with a very poor 5 card M it would be wise not to open 1M, but then you might miss your Major-fit even more...

I have the impression that including 4+♦ is also not the greatest thing you can have (for both competitive bidding and relaybidding). That's why I would open 1♦ with 4+♦ and 5+♣, and also here I've included this possibility in the relayscheme.

This would keep ambiguity at a quite low level imo, and might improve the opening:
1) hands with 6+♣ - no other 4 card
2) hands with exactly 4 card M and 5+♣, 4-4-0-5 included
3) never a 4+ card ♦, never a 5+ card M

To Richard: yes, I forgot to mention the ability to play 2M as one of the design goals, sry