[luke warm]

Fluffy, on Sep 6 2004, 07:26 PM, said:

luke warm, on Sep 6 2004, 02:23 PM, said:

i don't have this problem... with me, all the posted hands are opened 1S... as a matter of fact, with 5 spades i'd give some thought to opening 1S even if those were within my nt range... it's different with hearts, with H/S reversed and 12-14 i'd open 1nt in each case... i can't bid 1H/1S/1NT with 12-14

everything is governed by my possible rebids... if the hands posted were weak enough to fall within my nt range, opening 1S can get me in trouble (because of the forcing 1nt - no trouble if i played a semi-forcing 1nt)

I don´t difference between majors for 1 reason: I won´t rebid 2NT unles spartner made a 2/1.

I mean that to me 1M-1NT-2NT is game forcing, 18-19 (and due to some other conventions it could be non balanced sometimes, but that´s out of the question).

when I hold a balanced 5332 with 15-17 I open 1M, and then rebid my best minor, that is regardless of playing 2/1, or whatever 5 card major system.

This works the same way when partner responds 1♠. (I actually have switched the 1♠-1NT meanings over 1♥ recently).

i understand... but see, i *can't* open 1nt with 5332 15-17... since my nt is 12-14 (or 10-13) i'd have to open 1 of a suit then rebid 1nt to show this range... this actually works out well since responder knows whether or not to use 2 way ckback, etc...

i'd also open 12-14 with 1M if i was unbalanced... so for me, 1S : 1NT : 2D (for example) would almost guarantee 5/4+ in my 2 suits, with about 17 hcp tops... i agree with you on 1M/1NT/2NT

[the hog]

EricK, on Sep 6 2004, 10:40 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 6 2004, 08:44 AM, said:

EricK, on Sep 6 2004, 05:33 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 6 2004, 07:09 AM, said:

All balanced hands in the NT range should be opened with the appropriate NT bid. Shape is all important.

What would you open if each hand were an Ace lighter?

Eric

Playing a weak NT I would open that. Playing a strong NT you are forced to open 1M. I don't see the point of the question EricK. If the balanced hand falls outside your NT range you are forced to open something else.

The point of the question is that if you are playing a forcing 1NT response, then you can't show the balanced hand as a balanced hand.

So is the priority to show the balanced nature of your hand (which you can do by opening 1♣ or your better minor and rebidding 1NT or raising partner's ♠ bid) or to show the spade suit?

Eric

I think you are drawing a long bow, EricK. My point is and always was that if you have a balanced hand, (5332 4333, 4432 and maybe some 5422s and 6322 with a long m), in the NT range you are playing, then you should open 1N/2N.

If the hcp range falls outside the NT range, then of course, you have to make some other bid and the most descriptive with a 5 card M is to open that M.

To make a distinction here as to whether the 5 card M is H or S as some posters have done is silly imo, though I can understand the rationale behind this reasoning. You are altering your system rebids depending on the M you hold. This is adding additional complexity to your system and cannot be good if you wish to develop a coherent, consistent and logical progression of rebids.

As so often happens with questions of this nature, some posters frequently respond by "I would do this if...but that if..." without looking at the impact of the decision on the system as a whole. eg Lets take 2 hands:

♠ AKT83
♥ QJT
♦ KJ3
♣ Q2

♠ QJT
♥ AKT83
♦ KJ3
♣ Q2

If you open the first 1S, what do you bid over 2C? 2N? If you open the second 1N, what does the auction 1H 2C 2N show? It can't show this hand else you would have opened it with 1N. If you rebid 2D on either or both, then I am sorry but there is little hope for you as an informative bidder as you have totally misdescribed your hand.

Finally, appeals to authority such as "Kaplan says this, therefore..." carry little weight unless one knows what Kaplan would do, and I don't mean playing KS either. Would he rebid 2N? If so how do you handle balanced hands in the 12-14 range? Would he bid a non suit such as 2D? If so, my question is what is better -
to show in one bid a hand of balanced nature in a given range or to show in 2 bids an unbalanced, (5-4+), hand of indeterminate point count? I know what my answer is. I prefer precision to obfuscation.


Ron.

[han]

I completely agree with everything that Ron just wrote. The inferences when you do open 1M is a significant advantage.

Also, what Kaplan said should not be taken lightly, but there are a great many leading theorist who open 1NT with all balanced hands in the range (e.g. Marty Bergen).


The issue seems too complex to be absolutely certain what's best. I'd say that the weaker the notrump range, the larger the disadvantage of opening 1NT with 5-card majors. Besides, if system allows you could pass a semi-forcing notrump bid with 12 or 13 points after opening 1M. I'm not talking about mini-notrumps, as your system may not allow you to open 1M with those hands, and then opening 1NT clearly seems preferable.

I would enjoy it if Fluffy would explain his reasons for opening 1M with (almost) all hands containing a five-card major.

[keylime]

I open 1NT if this is the following:

1. If I have a five card major, the OTHER major has 3 cards in it.
2. If I have 3 of 4 suits stopped.
3. If it looks NTish - meaning if I have concentrated values in suits, it should be a suit. Scatter values with some tens and nines = NT.
4. Tens and nines. With more of them, hand upgrades and NT looks better.

[EricK]

Quote

I think you are drawing a long bow, EricK. My point is and always was that if you have a balanced hand, (5332 4333, 4432 and maybe some 5422s and 6322 with a long m),  in the NT range you are playing, then you should open 1N/2N.

I agree with this.

Quote

If the hcp range falls outside the NT range, then of course, you have to make some other bid and the most descriptive with a 5 card M is to open that M.

The most descriptive single bid is to bid the 5cM. But...

Quote

If so, my question is what is better -
to show in one bid a hand of balanced nature in a given range or to show in 2 bids an unbalanced, (5-4+), hand of indeterminate point count? I know what my answer is. I prefer precision to obfuscation.

What is better, to show in two bids a balanced hand outside your NT range, or to show in two bids an unbalanced (5-4+) hand.

Isn't one of the major advantages of bidding balanced hands as balanced hands that when you don't have a balanced hand partner will know about it? That applies equally well to 5332 hands inside your NT range, 5332 hands outside your NT range and (to bring in another oft quoted hand) 4234 (etc) hands outside your NT range.

Eric

[the hog]

"What is better, to show in two bids a balanced hand outside your NT range, or to show in two bids an unbalanced (5-4+) hand.

Isn't one of the major advantages of bidding balanced hands as balanced hands that when you don't have a balanced hand partner will know about it? That applies equally well to 5332 hands inside your NT range, 5332 hands outside your NT range and (to bring in another oft quoted hand) 4234 (etc) hands outside your NT range."

Yes, I agree but I don't know if I read an initial comment by you correctly, that you would open a 5332 outside the NT range with 1minor and rebid 1N.

To some extent Klinger does this in some of his partnerships. He opens bal 17-19 hands, (including those with 5Ds), with 1C and rebids 1N.
bal 11-13 hands, (including those with 5C) are opened 1D and rebid 1N.
All bal 14-16s are opened 1N.

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Sep 7 2004, 05:40 AM, said:

"What is better, to show in two bids a balanced hand outside your NT range, or to show in two bids an unbalanced (5-4+) hand.

Isn't one of the major advantages of bidding balanced hands as balanced hands that when you don't have a balanced hand partner will know about it? That applies equally well to 5332 hands inside your NT range, 5332 hands outside your NT range and (to bring in another oft quoted hand) 4234 (etc) hands outside your NT range."

Yes, I agree but I don't know if I read an initial comment by you correctly, that you would open a 5332 outside the NT range with 1minor and rebid 1N.

To some extent Klinger does this in some of his partnerships. He opens bal 17-19 hands, (including those with 5Ds), with 1C and rebids 1N.
bal 11-13 hands, (including those with 5C) are opened 1D and rebid 1N.
All bal 14-16s are opened 1N.

I wouldn't do it playing 2/1 (or whatever) in a pick-up partnership. But I think It would be part of a system I would like to play: Polish Club style, but with all weak balanced hands (including 5332s) going into 1♣.

I would also reverse the 1S and 1NT responses to 1H, so that opener's rebid after 1H 1S or 1S 1NT is always meaningful. (1H 1S 1NT = Flannery type hand).

There is a potential loss on all hands which are exactly 5332, but a potential gain on all other hands with a 5CM. eg 1H 2D 2NT = 5H & 4C, 1H 2D 3C = 5H & 5C etc

Eric

[Fluffy]

The_Hog, on Sep 6 2004, 11:14 PM, said:

As so often happens with questions of this nature, some posters frequently respond by "I would do this if...but that if..." without looking at the impact of the decision on the system as a whole. eg Lets take 2 hands:

♠ AKT83 
♥  QJT 
♦  KJ3 
♣  Q2 

♠ QJT
♥ AKT83 
♦  KJ3 
♣  Q2 

If you open the first 1S, what do you bid over 2C?

♣2NT: 15+ Balanced, describes sexactly what I have.

Quote

If you open the second 1N, what does the auction 1H 2C 2N show?

2NT?: 15+Balanced, exactly what I have still.

Quote

It can't show this hand else you would have opened it with 1N.

I never open 1NT with 5 card majors

Quote

If you rebid 2D on either or both, then I am sorry but there is little hope for you as an informative bidder as you have totally misdescribed your hand.

Have to disagree, I´ve played this methods since I Started playing bridge (11 years ago I started, but I learned this probably later), and I don´t remember a single bad result for doing it, the only time the auction finished on my 2♣ rebid for a dangerous fit it was a 3-3 fit, and I cross ruffed for -50 and a top score.

You are missdescribing your hand by showing a 5-4 where you have a 5-3? only at first round, when partner makes his 80% 2 card support I rebid 2NT to show a 5422/5332 15-17 balanced.



In my opinion is a matter of waht you think a 1NT opening is, to me is the worst opening in a natural system after 2NT, because gets rid of many of OUR space making it impossible to find a 4-4 major fit when partner has 5-7, getting rid as well of 5-3 adn 5-4 fits its not a great improvement.

Those of you who ike weak NT are tending to open the scope of Strong NT openings, of course you liek to open 1NT, but I hate weak NT even more, because gets rid even more of OUR space. And the less I can open those hands, or at least the most specific they are when I open, the happier I´ll be.

[helium]

1 nt all hands:)but agree whit fluffy, if i open 1♠i bid a minor next.

[the hog]

"In my opinion is a matter of waht you think a 1NT opening is, to me is the worst opening in a natural system after 2NT, because gets rid of many of OUR space making it impossible to find a 4-4 major fit when partner has 5-7, getting rid as well of 5-3 adn 5-4 fits its not a great improvement."

And there is the crux of the matter - we totally differ on this point. Personally I believe you should strive to open 1N as often as possible. Currently I am playing a 15-18 NT which is not ideal, but cest la vie.

The garbage 12-14 nt including 5 card Majors is amongst the most valuable bids in bridge imo. I am afraid Fluffy that I think you are guilty of 2 handed rather than 4 handed thinking here.

Re bidding 2D on the hands I posted. I really think bidding non suits like this is very poor bridge. You state you have never had a bad result doing so; I guess you have never had these auctions -
1S 2C 2D 4D
1S 2C 2D 3H where 3H shows a singleton, very good 4 card D support and a slammish hand. Perhaps these bids are not allowed in your system?

I believe its is more important to paint a correct picture of my hand here, and stating I have at least 9 cards in the 2 suits I have bid and an unbalanced hand is a far more informative picture than bidding this way to show a balanced no trump oriented hand with a 5332 distribution.

Ron

[Free]

Fluffy, on Sep 7 2004, 12:32 PM, said:

In my opinion is a matter of waht you think a 1NT opening is, to me is the worst opening in a natural system after 2NT, because gets rid of many of OUR space making it impossible to find a 4-4 major fit when partner has 5-7, getting rid as well of 5-3 adn 5-4 fits its not a great improvement.

Fluffy

in your first reply you say that you open 1NT with both Majors (still not with a 5 card M). Theoretical this is a poor method of missing many 4-4 fits. And now you're complaining about missing 4-4 Major fits when partner has 5-7!? I'm a bit confused here...

If you really care about finding that 4-4 Major fit, you shouldn't open 1NT with both Majors as well. Hmmm, I would just not bid 1NT with any 4-card Major anymore, since it also might lose our 4-4 fit.

[luke warm]

Quote

fluffy:
Those of you who ike weak NT are tending to open the scope of Strong NT openings, of course you liek to open 1NT, but I hate weak NT even more, because gets rid even more of OUR space. And the less I can open those hands, or at least the most specific they are when I open, the happier I´ll be.

as you know i have a lot of respect for your abilities and knowledge, however this is hard for me to understand ... maybe it's because i'm *so* dang prejudiced toward the mini/weak nt...

i can't see a mini/weak nt preempting our side... maybe it's happened, but truthfully i can't recall when it has... partner always has invitational puppet/garbage stayman and game forcing stayman... yes, it's possible we'll play in 1nt with a 4/4 or 5/3 major fit, but that isn't *necessarily* bad (depends on the field and on declarer play/luck)... even if it does end up badly sometimes, to me the havoc raised on the other side makes it worth it...

i know it's easy to remember the victories and forget the defeats, but i'm trying to be as objective as i can... i honestly believe that playing a weak nt, and opening it as often as possible, shows ahead on the scorecard in the long run

[Rebound]

I'm with Fluffy. It's so much easier to just open a 5-card major than to try and convince partner you have one later.

[the hog]

Rebound, on Sep 8 2004, 10:18 AM, said:

I'm with Fluffy. It's so much easier to just open a 5-card major than to try and convince partner you have one later.

More "me tooism" without any attempt to discuss the ramifications involved in opening these hands with 1M.

Another one who has never heard of puppet stayman! If you open 1n in what auctions do you need to "convince" partner you have a 5 card suit. Puppet stayman shows the 5 carder. If the opps balance and you bid your suit, will it not be 5?

You have also not responded to any comments re the bidding of "non" suits and how you envisage the auction continuing with differing ranges, nor how you handle auctions when responder jumps to 4D or shows a splinter agreeing your non-existent suit.

[mikestar]

For many years I opened 5M-3-3-2 hands with the major. But long experience has taught me that it is often a good thing to miss the 5-3 fit if partner is 4-3-3-3, breaks about even when he's 4-4-3-2 and loses if he's unbalanced with 3M. A method such as puppet stayman can eliminate pretty much all of the losing cases when partner is game invitational or better.

[whereagles]

Actually, now that Hog mentions the 12-14 NT with 5-card majors, I remember I once played this structure (1st 2nd NV)

1NT = 8-11 may have weakish 5-card maj. 8 pts only if 5-card somewhere (kinda makes it a 9 count).
2-any suit = 5-10 weak two (including 2C = clubs), 5-card possible but good suit (else open 1NT).

That was quite the annoyance for opponents We got caught speeding exactly ONCE, vs the best pair of the country, and only because pard forgot the 1NT escape mechanism (Opps said later they'd bail us out if pard had bid what he should, lol.)

[luke warm]

Rebound, on Sep 8 2004, 02:18 AM, said:

I'm with Fluffy. It's so much easier to just open a 5-card major than to try and convince partner you have one later.

hmmm... how does
1nt : 2c
2S
sound? convincing enough?

oops, i just read ron's reply, but had already responded to this one...

[Cascade]

The_Hog, on Sep 6 2004, 07:09 PM, said:

All balanced hands in the NT range should be opened with the appropriate NT bid. Shape is all important.

All hand with a five-card major should be opened with 1Maj. Shape is all important.

[dogsbreath]

hi ..
..refering to the original post .. 15/18 is too wide a range for 1NT ..y got enough problems already without worrying about 5-card majors.
Apart from that, i'm with the 5-card major/1nt openers on this ..
Rgds Dog

Quote

dont think twice, it's alright

[Fluffy]

Free, on Sep 7 2004, 11:32 PM, said:

If you really care about finding that 4-4 Major fit, you shouldn't open 1NT with both Majors as well. Hmmm, I would just not bid 1NT with any 4-card Major anymore, since it also might lose our 4-4 fit.

I not long ago was playing 15+1/2-17+1/2 NT ranges, wich means when you have 15 or 18 you have to decide to undervalue or to overvalue (same with 20 & 22).

And I must say the best about openings whas that I could choice to open 1m always I had 4-4 in the majors regardless of my intermediates& Js, it turned kinda good as I remember.


To Ron...

What I mean is you are losing major fits everytime partner has 5-7 range, pupet stayman has its advantages to find 5 card major, but it gets rid of weak stayman to get a decent part scroe when very weak.