[iscbrooks]

Some people seem to be getting a little off track. I recommend we stick to the topic, using the normal 16-18 NT range.

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I'm with Fluffy. It's so much easier to just open a 5-card major than to try and convince partner you have one later.

hmmm... how does
1nt : 2c
2S
sound? convincing enough?

What if he has 4 hearts and 3 spades? What if he doesn't even bid Stayman because he only has 3? Stayman works for 4-4 fits, but doesn't cover 5-3. Probably because you should open 1M with a 5-card major.

[Free]

That's why nobody plays pure stayman anymore, but rather something which starts the same and has a relay to find a 5 card M or some other full relay schemes. Isn't it the original stayman which suggested to bid 2NT with both Majors? Who does that these days anyway?

The easiest way imo is just to use 3♣ as puppet stayman with GF values...

[luke warm]

iscbrooks, on Sep 8 2004, 05:33 PM, said:

Some people seem to be getting a little off track. I recommend we stick to the topic, using the normal 16-18 NT range.

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I'm with Fluffy. It's so much easier to just open a 5-card major than to try and convince partner you have one later.

hmmm... how does
1nt : 2c
2S
sound? convincing enough?

What if he has 4 hearts and 3 spades? What if he doesn't even bid Stayman because he only has 3? Stayman works for 4-4 fits, but doesn't cover 5-3. Probably because you should open 1M with a 5-card major.

if he has an invitational hand, 3433 or 3442 (for example), the bidding is:
1nt : 2c
2d : 2h

this shows 4 hearts, opener can now bid a 4 card spade suit, pass 2h, bid 3h, bid 2nt, etc... responder showed an invitational strength hand by bidding non-forcing stayman in the first place

this is why i much prefer 2d as game forcing stayman.. in free's post above he says he prefers 3c as puppet with game force hand.. i haven't needed that playing 2d, the relay structure finds it.. this is especially true if no 4522 hands are opened 1nt (canape of some kind)

[tysen2k]

This is an area that I've devoted some time and research into studying. Some things I've discovered:

For strong NT, including 5cM scores better simply because of increased frequency. 1NT is a pretty effective bid for both constructive and preemptive purposes and so increasing its frequency is a good thing. Taking 5c ♠s out doesn't hurt that much. Taking out the hearts hurts more.

For weak NT, it's more of a wash, but including the 5cM is still better than not. The weaker we are the more likely a major partial is going to be better than NT. So we suffer more by not mentioning our major when we're weak, but it's still worth it from a frequency/preemption point of view.

If you go weaker than about 12-14, then it's probably better not have the 5cM.

Tysen

[pbleighton]

"If you go weaker than about 12-14, then it's probably better not have the 5cM.

Tysen"

Playing a 10-13 NT when NV, we open 1NT with 5S with 10-11, and 1NT with 5H with 10-12. A reasonable 5cM with a max is too strong for any NT range IMO.

1X openers for us are Rule of 18, so 5332 10/11 counts qualify, but...

The main reason for the mini is offense - but it's also nice to let it take the balanced trash out of your openings, including 1M. Yes, we do miss fits, but since the field isn't opening these hands...

With 12-14 (vul) we open 1NT except for decent 14 pointers.

Peter

[Free]

Tysen 2000 ,

I think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere...

- You talk about using strong NT for a part as preemptive, so you allow 5 card Majors to increase the frequency.
- With weak NT (more preemptive) you still allow 5 card Majors, but you seem not to be so sure
- When playing mini (pure preemptive method imo) then you wouldn't allow them for some reason (not specified)

It seems to me like the more preemptive you go, the less frequency you want which is imo the reversed psychology of preempting. Or do you only consider the constructive part of the NT?

Anyway, as somebody else said: if you don't include 5 card ♠, no real problems (since we will control the partscore bidding), but if you don't include a 5 card ♥, then you start losing since opps have a bigger chance of having/finding a ♠ fit, and controlling the partscore battle. This is imo completely true!
But note that when opps intervene after your 1NT and you have a 5 card ♠, you can still bid it at 2-level. So I don't see an immediate reason why not to open 1NT with any 5 card M. Ok, we'll lose some 5-3 fits from time to time, or end up in a 5-2 instead of a 3-5 fit (you can solve this by requiring a 3 card OM when you have a 5 card M), but you still end up in a playable contract.

Perhaps some more research should be done what methods work best in imps and in MP's, cause there could be a huge difference imo. Research about:
- both 5-card Major allowed
- no 5-card ♠ allowed, only 5-card ♥ allowed
- no 5-card Major allowed, but any other distributions in the Majors allowed
- no 5-card Major or 4-4 ♥-♠ allowed
- no 5- or 4-card Major allowed (so minor-suit oriented and pure anti-Major preempt)
Anyone with lots of spare time?

[helium]

its no problem opening 15-17 nt whit 5 in a major after my experience, we use puppet stayman over 1 nt,(not just over 2 nt), and then responder can check if he want so fint ut if u have 4 or 5 card major... np:))



kenneth

[luke warm]

pbleighton, on Sep 9 2004, 01:17 AM, said:

"If you go weaker than about 12-14, then it's probably better not have the 5cM.

Tysen"

Playing a 10-13 NT when NV, we open 1NT with 5S with 10-11, and 1NT with 5H with 10-12. A reasonable 5cM with a max is too strong for any NT range IMO.

1X openers for us are Rule of 18, so 5332 10/11 counts qualify, but...

The main reason for the mini is offense - but it's also nice to let it take the balanced trash out of your openings, including 1M. Yes, we do miss fits, but since the field isn't opening these hands...

With 12-14 (vul) we open 1NT except for decent 14 pointers.

Peter

this is the "other" way to play 5332 hands... the 12, 13 point hands open 1M and rebid cheapest/best minor over a forcing nt... another problem is the 12, 13 1H bid when partner responds 1S... 1nt now promises 14-16 (playing mini)

i've about come to the conclusion that 1nt should be semi-forcing when playing a mini nt, but ONLY if one has opened 1M with a 5332 hand in the nt range... then partner won't go into seizures when 1nt is passed

[luke warm]

helium, on Sep 9 2004, 01:56 AM, said:

its no problem opening 15-17 nt whit 5 in a major after my experience, we use puppet stayman over 1 nt,(not just over 2 nt), and then responder can check if he want so fint ut if u have  4 or 5 card major... np:))



kenneth

true, it is no problem but only if responder has an invitational hand.. i think the ones who are objecting do so because of the superior partscore playing 2M (especially if using a mini nt and especially at matchpoints)

i think they are right quite often, but imo not often enough to justify giving up the preemptive effect... just an opinion though

[pbleighton]

"this is the "other" way to play 5332 hands... the 12, 13 point hands open 1M and rebid cheapest/best minor over a forcing nt... another problem is the 12, 13 1H bid when partner responds 1S... 1nt now promises 14-16 (playing mini)

i've about come to the conclusion that 1nt should be semi-forcing when playing a mini nt, but ONLY if one has opened 1M with a 5332 hand in the nt range... then partner won't go into seizures when 1nt is passed"

We play 1M-1NT as natural, 2/1 as F1.

The 1H rebid problem is why we open 1NT with 5H through 12(13). With a decent 13, we call it 14 when it comes to the rebid.

I played a semi-forcing NT for a while - it had advantages, but you can miss games once in a while.

Peter

[EricK]

pbleighton, on Sep 9 2004, 01:10 AM, said:

"this is the "other" way to play 5332 hands... the 12, 13 point hands open 1M and rebid cheapest/best minor over a forcing nt... another problem is the 12, 13 1H bid when partner responds 1S... 1nt now promises 14-16 (playing mini)

i've about come to the conclusion that 1nt should be semi-forcing when playing a mini nt, but ONLY if one has opened 1M with a 5332 hand in the nt range... then partner won't go into seizures when 1nt is passed"

We play 1M-1NT as natural, 2/1 as F1.

The 1H rebid problem is why we open 1NT with 5H through 12(13). With a decent 13, we call it 14 when it comes to the rebid.

I played a semi-forcing NT for a while - it had advantages, but you can miss games once in a while.

Peter

With a semi forcing 1NT you can also miss the best part score when responder has a weak hand with a long suit.

Eric

[Fluffy]

Not onlyopen 1M saves the fit when partner has 5-, but also lets him compete when he is 2-4 after passing. If you open 1NT you will have to play a poor contract of decide to compete blindly to 2M.

[Gerben47]

I open 1NT with 5♥ only not with 5♠ as with 5♥ there is a bigger rebid problem (after 1♥ - 1♠!) and a bigger gain when they cannot overcall 1♠.
Kaplan inversion solves the rebid problem a bit but the other point stays.

Reading through the posts there are several things.

* The reason that we're discussing this is that it probably won't matter much. Some world class players say never open with 5M, some say always, some more say sometimes.

* Someone stated 16 - 18 as a "normal" range for 1NT. Since it's in some beginners system for unknown reasons (it's terrible!) does not mean it is at all normal.

ADVANTAGE of 1NT: More accurate hand description
DISADVANTAGE of 1NT: Might miss a major suit fit if partner is too weak to act

So maybe : doesn't matter at teams, no 5-card majors in MP?

Gerben

[luke warm]

pbleighton, on Sep 9 2004, 03:10 AM, said:

I played a semi-forcing NT for a while - it had advantages, but you can miss games once in a while.

Peter

right.. if i played it, it'd only be for 5=3=3=2 hands 11, 12 hcp that i opened 1S... but i think it's better to open that 1nt and keep the forcing 1nt response

and eric's point about responder with long suit is correct also, which is another reason for me to just open 1nt

[Free]

Fluffy, on Sep 9 2004, 04:53 AM, said:

Not onlyopen 1M saves the fit when partner has 5-, but also lets him compete when he is 2-4 after passing. If you open 1NT you will have to play a poor contract of decide to compete blindly to 2M.

What happens to you with a 5-3-3-2 (opener) when partner has a 2-5-4-2? You'll open 1♠ and probably end up in 2♦, missing your 3-5 fit in ♥. So do you really never miss a 5-3 fit by opening 1♠??

By opening 1♥ you won't have a similar problem, since responder can show his ♠ suit, but you'll always have to support with your 3 card...

[Fluffy]

Most of my partners will bid 2♠ at MP with that and we will finnish in 2NT. at IMPS 2♦ is a good contract, better than 1NT.

I´ll support, but won´t ever give a 3 card support directly, I will do it at the third round after I bid my minor:

1♥-1♠-2♣-2♥-2♠.

To Gerben47:

In spain 16-18 is the Standard NT range (probably because we are all novices).

If the advantage of opening 1NT with 5c major is that it is more accurate.... you could open as well 1NT with 4225, 2336... etc, the problem is, the more hands you put into 1NT the LESS accurate it becomes. I love the accuracy of opening 1NT and ruling out a 5c major form my partner, it helps so much my very artificial continuations.

if Kaplan inversion is the inversión of 1♠/1NT after 1♥.. it solves nothing:

1♥-1♠**, now 1NT is 12-14, still have to bid a minor with 15-17.

[tysen2k]

Free, on Sep 8 2004, 06:46 PM, said:

Tysen 2000  ,

I think there's a flaw in your logic somewhere...

- You talk about using strong NT for a part as preemptive, so you allow 5 card Majors to increase the frequency.
- With weak NT (more preemptive) you still allow 5 card Majors, but you seem not to be so sure   
- When playing mini (pure preemptive method imo) then you wouldn't allow them for some reason (not specified)

It seems to me like the more preemptive you go, the less frequency you want  which is imo the reversed psychology of preempting.  Or do you only consider the constructive part of the NT?

Not really. The weak NT occurs much more frequently than the strong. A strong NT without 5cM occurs too rarely to be of much use. It becomes an underutilized bid and puts more burden on the rest of your system. And since you're stronger the danger of missing a 2M partscore is much less.

The weak NT is much more frequent with or without the 5cM. Adding 5cM to the weak NT increases the preemptiveness but hurts constructive bidding. Around 12-14, the bonus to preemptiveness still outweighs the constructive burden, so it's worth including 5cM. Go much weaker than that and the loss of constructive bidding hurts more than the bonus of added preemption. The weaker opener gets, the less likely responder is to have an invitational hand that is able to use weapons like Puppet Stayman. The inibility to play in 2M hurts more in MP than IMP's, but it still hurts in both.

Tysen

[whereagles]

tysen2k, on Sep 9 2004, 06:13 PM, said:

A strong NT without 5cM occurs too rarely to be of much use.

Too rarely? I'm willing to bet at least 50% of all bridge players play a 15-17 1NT without 5-card majors and I don't hear them complaining of not opening 1NT often enough.

And I don't think it's too much of a burden to bid 15-17 balanced hands with 5-card major as...

1M 1NT
2m 2M
2NT

2m = 3-card suit. Responder will only pass this with 2M4m. With 2M3m or 1M3m he bids 2M.
2NT = showing 15-17. Usually balanced, though some unbalanced hands bid 2NT as well.

It's probably not as precise as opening 1NT and using puppet stayman or Keri, but it sure is playable and has the advantage of not missing 53 or 54 major suit fits...

[tysen2k]

whereagles, on Sep 9 2004, 01:06 PM, said:

tysen2k, on Sep 9 2004, 06:13 PM, said:

A strong NT without 5cM occurs too rarely to be of much use.

Too rarely? I'm willing to bet at least 50% of all bridge players play a 15-17 1NT without 5-card majors and I don't hear them complaining of not opening 1NT often enough.

Just because most people do it doesn't mean it's best from a bidding theory point of view. Light openings are also quite valuable, but I know a lot of people who won't open a 12 point hand.

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And I don't think it's too much of a burden to bid 15-17 balanced hands with 5-card major as...

1M 1NT
2m 2M
2NT

2m = 3-card suit. Responder will only pass this with 2M4m. With 2M3m or 1M3m he bids 2M.
2NT = showing 15-17. Usually balanced, though some unbalanced hands bid 2NT as well.

Yuck! You want to bid 2N on 15-17 when partner very likely only has 6-7? And you might not even be balanced so partner can't really evaluate his shape? I think you made my point for me; not opening these hands with 1N puts more burden on you major openings.

Tysen

[pbleighton]

"The weak NT is much more frequent with or without the 5cM. Adding 5cM to the weak NT increases the preemptiveness but hurts constructive bidding. Around 12-14, the bonus to preemptiveness still outweighs the constructive burden, so it's worth including 5cM. Go much weaker than that and the loss of constructive bidding hurts more than the bonus of added preemption. The weaker opener gets, the less likely responder is to have an invitational hand that is able to use weapons like Puppet Stayman. The inibility to play in 2M hurts more in MP than IMP's, but it still hurts in both."

Your technical point is valid, but...

1) This assumes that the field were opening the 10/11 5M332s 1M - but they are passing, at least in my neck of the woods. The missed fits are mostly missed by the field
2) You are opening hands you would otherwise pass, and/or cleaning up your 1M openers
3) Most importantly, in my experience, a mini NT is considerably more difficult for the opps to handle than 1M. It forces even good players to guess wrong a lot.

Peter