[straube]

Quote

Anyway, regarding the 4/5 ♠ differential, it seems in your proposed responses, the 1N bid specifically targets the the 5♠ in balanced hand. It may not be true from the purely design POV, but that's the only information the bid has conveyed.

I wasn't using 1N as 5+ spades balanced. I was using it as 5+ spades any shape. I think 2H should be GI+ with 6 spades. Most of the time we'll find an immediate fit or at least a 5-2 fit. When we don't, opener will be able to bid a 5-cd suit (unless specifically 1-4-4-4). Responder may pass this, cue, suggest a side suit, or correct to spades.

Quote

Pass <All else>
dbl-4/5♠, including GF hands
1S- Transfer to NT, could be NFB+ in ♣ or GF in ♦
1N-4/5♠, 4+ cards in a minor, competitive
2C-4+♣, 5♠, competitive
2D-4+♦, 5♠, competitive
2H- 6♠, weak or strong
2S: Minors, competitive
2N-inv
3C: GF with ♣

Much too much devoted to spade fits. Dbl, 1N, 2C, 2D, and 2H? And 1N, 2C, and 2D are nf?

[akhare]

Fixing some typos. IMO, the key point is not that it revolves around ♠, but what information the bids simultaneously convey about the other suits.

Pass <All else>
dbl-4/5♠, including GF hands
1S- Transfer to NT, could be NFB+ in ♣
1N-5♠, 4+ cards in a a minor, forcing one round
2C-NFB+ in ♦
2D-4+♦, 4♠, competitive
2H- 6♠, GI
2S: Competitive with the minors
3C/3D: GF

Basically, except for 2D, responder gets two bites at the apple...

[straube]

I'm concerned that using 1D (1H) 1S to show four spades wrong-sides spade contracts. I want to think about switching back to dbl to show spades. I think many folks haven't discussed what a 1S advance would mean over dbl (natural, cue, transfer advance?) but it would obviously be natural opposite a dbl showing diamonds. Also, I had been concerned about what a 1S rebid ought to mean for dbl showing spades. I think letting it show diamonds is profitable.

I'm wondering what 1D (1H) dbl P 1N P 2S means (or ought to mean) for those playing negative doubles.

1D (1H)

.....dbl-four spades
..........1S-four clubs
..........1N-natural
..........2C-both minors
..........2D-4H/6D
..........2H-good raise
..........2S-bad raise

.....1S-four+ diamonds "asks trump quality"
..........1N-all else, could have 4-fit for diamonds when positional for NT
...............2C-clubs, forcing
..........2C-good raise, possible 3-fit when short hearts
..........2D-bad raise, possible 3-fit when short hearts

.....1N-five+ spades

.....2C-four+ clubs, f

.....2D-9-11, 3 diamonds, 4-5 clubs
..........2H-4-4-2-3
..........2S-4-4-3-2
..........2N-3-4-3-3

.....2H-GI+ 6 spades
.....2S-5/4 minors
..........2N-asks
.....2N-GI
.....3m-weak

[Zelandakh]

Does your 1D - (1H) - 1NT promise a stop or is it just showing shape? If it promises a stop then it seems most profitable to use 2H as 5+ clubs and 2S as 5+ diamonds, invitational strength (making 2S passable in a Moysian) - we have discussed this concept before. If 1NT is only a shape bid then you need a way to invite invitationally without a stop and 2S is the obvious bid to use here. Also, I think that 1D - (1H) - 1S = clubs and 1D - (1H) - 2C = diamonds is stronger than 2C natural. But you know already that I prefer 1NT for the other minor and 2C as both minors, weak here.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2011-February-24, 04:45, said:

Does your 1D - (1H) - 1NT promise a stop or is it just showing shape? If it promises a stop then it seems most profitable to use 2H as 5+ clubs and 2S as 5+ diamonds, invitational strength (making 2S passable in a Moysian) - we have discussed this concept before. If 1NT is only a shape bid then you need a way to invite invitationally without a stop and 2S is the obvious bid to use here. Also, I think that 1D - (1H) - 1S = clubs and 1D - (1H) - 2C = diamonds is stronger than 2C natural. But you know already that I prefer 1NT for the other minor and 2C as both minors, weak here.

1D (1H) 1N only shows spades; it doesn't show a stop. I don't understand your next sentence. You mean 1D (1H) 2H as 5+ clubs and GI+ strength? Too high I would think.

ID (1H) 1S as clubs is workable but it restricts opener's ability to bid anything but 1N or 2C. It also means that responder can't show GI with 5D/4+ clubs; if he transfers and bids 3C I would assume that is forcing (and consequently the GI 5D/4C hands are lost.

Is your 1D (1H) 1N forcing? I'm happy that my dbl, 1S, 1N, 2H, and 2S bids are all forcing.

If you have time and the interest, look at hands with the deal generator and try these structures out. Akhare and I did a couple evenings ago and using 1N as 5 spades did well. Most of the time it made no difference, but some of the time it made a big difference.

I'm still pondering whether I like 1D (1H) dbl (1S) to show diamonds or clubs. I think clubs is better, but not at all sure. Which do you like and why?

Also for Adam, I know you don't really like where I'm going with this structure, but have any advice as to how we differentiate GI from GF strength? After 1D (1H) 2C, how does opener raise clubs weakly or strongly?
After 1D (1H) 2C P 2D P how does responder raise diamonds or rebid clubs strongly or weakly? I'm thinking we should use the 2H bid as a weakness signal. I know that 1D (1H) 2C as diamonds solves some of this, but it creates other difficulties (legalities being one) including responder having to differentiate constructive vs GI vs GF strengths.

[Zelandakh]

Sorry, I was talking about the auctions after a double (showing 4 spades). So 1D - (1H) - X - 1NT and 1D - (1H) - X - 2M. Looks like I missed the X out in my previous post. Then went back to the situation without the double, comparing 1S = diamonds, 1N = spades and 2C = clubs with 1S = clubs, 1N = diamonds and 2C = both minors (spades coming with higher bids).

I am slightly confused with your "pondering question" - is 1S bid by the opps or by us? If you mean 1D - (1H) - 1S then hopefully this makes it clear I prefer this as clubs, the main reason being the usual advantages of transfers. The GI with 5D+4C hand I would include in my "general force" 2H response. 1N as 5+ spades will clearly be a big winner as it devotes a great deal of space to this hand type - but it crams the auctions for hands without spades somewhat. If you do not use 1NT as spades then it is clear you need 2 or 3 higher bids to show these hands. My feeling was that 2 is enough but perhaps your simulations suggest more space is required. Obviously it is possible in this context to use 2H over 1H as an extra 3rd spade bid but then you have issues with some INV hands as you have already highlighted. Perhaps this could be circumvented by using 1D - (1H) - 1N - 2m - 2H conventionally for 5D + 4C without spades or a heart stop and 1D - (1H) - 1S - 2m - 2H as the same hand type but balanced, presumably (23)44. Then 1D - (1H) - 2DHS would all be available for hands with spades - perhaps 2D = 5 spades, INV+; 2H = 6+ spades, INV+; and 2S = NFB. I suspect such a structure will perform just as well as your current one but with a couple more options. But the only way to see that is by comparing them over lots of hands which I do not have time for at present. Anyway, updated idea is

1D - (1H)
=========
X = 4 spades
1S = clubs (2H next round is "general force" hand type)
1N = diamonds (2H next round is "general force" hand type with 5 diamonds)
2C = both minors, weak
2D = 5 spades, INV+
2H = 6+ spades, INV+
2S = NFB
2N = 5-5 minors, INV+
3C = 5-5 minors, weak

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2011-February-25, 05:04, said:

Sorry, I was talking about the auctions after a double (showing 4 spades). So 1D - (1H) - X - 1NT and 1D - (1H) - X - 2M. Looks like I missed the X out in my previous post. Then went back to the situation without the double, comparing 1S = diamonds, 1N = spades and 2C = clubs with 1S = clubs, 1N = diamonds and 2C = both minors (spades coming with higher bids).

I am slightly confused with your "pondering question" - is 1S bid by the opps or by us? If you mean 1D - (1H) - 1S then hopefully this makes it clear I prefer this as clubs, the main reason being the usual advantages of transfers. The GI with 5D+4C hand I would include in my "general force" 2H response. 1N as 5+ spades will clearly be a big winner as it devotes a great deal of space to this hand type - but it crams the auctions for hands without spades somewhat. If you do not use 1NT as spades then it is clear you need 2 or 3 higher bids to show these hands. My feeling was that 2 is enough but perhaps your simulations suggest more space is required. Obviously it is possible in this context to use 2H over 1H as an extra 3rd spade bid but then you have issues with some INV hands as you have already highlighted. Perhaps this could be circumvented by using 1D - (1H) - 1N - 2m - 2H conventionally for 5D + 4C without spades or a heart stop and 1D - (1H) - 1S - 2m - 2H as the same hand type but balanced, presumably (23)44. Then 1D - (1H) - 2DHS would all be available for hands with spades - perhaps 2D = 5 spades, INV+; 2H = 6+ spades, INV+; and 2S = NFB. I suspect such a structure will perform just as well as your current one but with a couple more options. But the only way to see that is by comparing them over lots of hands which I do not have time for at present. Anyway, updated idea is

1D - (1H)
=========
X = 4 spades
1S = clubs (2H next round is "general force" hand type)
1N = diamonds (2H next round is "general force" hand type with 5 diamonds)
2C = both minors, weak
2D = 5 spades, INV+
2H = 6+ spades, INV+
2S = NFB
2N = 5-5 minors, INV+
3C = 5-5 minors, weak

Sorry, I meant I'm pondering what 1D (1H) dbl P 1S should show assuming that dbl shows only four spades. Should it show clubs or diamonds or a minimum or maximum or deny a heart stop or show 3 spades or...? I'm thinking it should show clubs so that...

1D (1H) dbl P

1S-clubs
.....1N-to play
..........2C-4D/5C (6C not possible)
1N-other, doesn't show a stopper, could have clubs if positional for NT
2C-5D/4C
2D-6D

but I find (when looking at clubs) that so often opener is positional for NT and declines to show clubs.

My #2 question is...

1D (1H) 2C P ?

how does opener show a forcing vs weak raise of clubs? My thought is that a weak raise has to bid 2H first and hope that responder will rebid 2N so that clubs can be raised. Unfortunately, this frustrates responder when he has a good hand and is denied knowledge of a fit.

My #3 question is...

1D (1H) dbl P 1N P 2S means what? What does it mean with standard negative doubles.