[jallerton]

jallerton, on 2011-February-13, 17:21, said:

Doesn't it make a difference in what order he cashes his 12 "aces"? Suppose that he plays his 4 real aces at tricks 1 to 4 than plays a heart to the King. Now he is off when East discards on the 2nd heart.

pran, on 2011-February-14, 01:22, said:

Do you consider this "normal" play at this level? I don't.

I consider normal play at this level to count your tricks properly before claiming. Presumably at the point when he claimed, South thought that he had 13 winners; in that case it is entirely normal to cash them in any order that doesn't involve leaving stranded winners in one of the hands.

[jallerton]

blackshoe, on 2011-February-13, 19:12, said:

If I become convinced (I'm not, yet) that I should rule contract made, then I'm giving him a PP for failure to state a line of play.

Suppose that one of North's smaller hearts had been the jack, i.e. declarer does have 13 tricks on top. Would you still give declarer a PP then for failing to state a line of play?

[pran]

pran, on 2011-February-13, 15:29, said:

At a lower level I might rule down one, but in the top league I would give him the contract:
All three finesses work as do all possible squeeze variants.

bluejak, on 2011-February-14, 17:29, said:

If this were true no doubt i would give it to him.

The finesse against East's ♥J fails, as do squeezes against East in the reds or the rounded suits.

I know this is pretty certainly a sure tricks problem but I do not care: I am not going to play a complicated hand for a declarer who cannot be bothered to state a line. Down one.

The Director must adjudicate the claim on what will happen during all possible normal lines of play as the cards lie. East with his holding of cards has no part in this.

[WellSpyder]

pran, on 2011-February-15, 03:44, said:

East with his holding of cards has no part in this.

That is hardly the point, is it? South doesn't know what cards East holds so has no way of knowing that East has no part to play on the hand. So lines that aim to make the contract when East has the key cards may be entirely normal lines of play that happen to fail as the cards lie.

[pran]

WellSpyder, on 2011-February-15, 04:00, said:

That is hardly the point, is it? South doesn't know what cards East holds so has no way of knowing that East has no part to play on the hand. So lines that aim to make the contract when East has the key cards may be entirely normal lines of play that happen to fail as the cards lie.

Indeed. But do you see any such ("normal") lines here?

[cherdano]

pran, on 2011-February-15, 06:22, said:

Indeed. But do you see any such ("normal") lines here?

Run the spades, pitching all minor suit "losers" from dummy, cross to the king of hearts.

[RMB1]

cherdano, on 2011-February-15, 06:25, said:

Run the spades, pitching all minor suit "losers" from dummy, cross to the king of hearts.

Indeed. While West comes down to -/Jxxx/K/K (without looking uncomfortable ).

[bluejak]

pran, on 2011-February-13, 15:29, said:

At a lower level I might rule down one, but in the top league I would give him the contract:
All three finesses work as do all possible squeeze variants.

Vampyr, on 2011-February-15, 00:01, said:

Then we wonder why average players think that tournament directors operate of the elite, by the elite and for the elite, and wish that they shall perish from this earth.

That is entirely unfair. There are also many cases where we rule in favour of the poor player, and against the expert. A notable example is the "protect yourself" type of case.

At such times expert players "think that tournament directors operate of the mediocre, by the mediocre and for the mediocre, and wish that they shall perish from this earth".

[bluejak]

pran, on 2011-February-15, 03:44, said:

The Director must adjudicate the claim on what will happen during all possible normal lines of play as the cards lie. East with his holding of cards has no part in this.

Indeed. So you are assuming that the TD will play it double dummy for declarer?

If you do that I might actually have some sympathy with Steph's comment. But the vast majority of TDs will not, fortunately.

[pran]

pran, on 2011-February-15, 03:44, said:

The Director must adjudicate the claim on what will happen during all possible normal lines of play as the cards lie. East with his holding of cards has no part in this.

bluejak, on 2011-February-15, 07:50, said:

Indeed. So you are assuming that the TD will play it double dummy for declarer?

Certainly not. But I still haven't found any "normal" line of play where a player at this level would fail to make his grand as the cards lie.

Show me one and I will (of course) rule a failing claim.

[cherdano]

pran, on 2011-February-15, 08:35, said:

Certainly not. But I still haven't found any "normal" line of play where a player at this level would fail to make his grand as the cards lie.

Show me one and I will (of course) rule a failing claim.

What is wrong with the line of play I gave? This seems "normal" for a player at any level who miscounted his tricks.

[RMB1]

cherdano, on 2011-February-15, 08:54, said:

What is wrong with the line of play I gave? This seems "normal" for a player at any level who miscounted his tricks.

Or who thought ♥Jxxx was an impossible holding.

[pran]

pran, on 2011-February-15, 08:35, said:

Certainly not. But I still haven't found any "normal" line of play where a player at this level would fail to make his grand as the cards lie.

Show me one and I will (of course) rule a failing claim.

cherdano, on 2011-February-15, 08:54, said:

What is wrong with the line of play I gave? This seems "normal" for a player at any level who miscounted his tricks.

That is what I might consider "normal" for a player at a lower level, but at this level I would be extremely surprised if the player didn't automatically (almost without thinking) cash his two minor Aces before running spades. The position will then be ♥KT,♦Q and ♣Q in North and the four hearts in South. A small heart to the King now ends the board unless one defender holds ♥Jxxx and the other both minor Kings. Even I would make that play automatically, and I am definitely not a top level player.

[cherdano]

pran, on 2011-February-15, 15:49, said:

That is what I might consider "normal" for a player at a lower level, but at this level I would be extremely surprised if the player didn't automatically (almost without thinking) cash his two minor Aces before running spades. The position will then be ♥KT,♦Q and ♣Q in North and the four hearts in South. A small heart to the King now ends the board unless one defender holds ♥Jxxx and the other both minor Kings. Even I would make that play automatically, and I am definitely not a top level player.

That would look pretty silly if LHO had all the hearts, and RHO the minors suit kings.

(Btw, this is just Germany's first league, not the "top level". I don't know how good you are, but I assume your declarer play beats that of an average player in Germany's first league who has just miscounted his tricks.)

[pran]

Gerben42, on 2011-February-13, 15:08, said:

A declarer in the top national German league has to play 7NT on a ♠ lead:

cherdano, on 2011-February-15, 16:02, said:

(Btw, this is just Germany's first league, not the "top level". I don't know how good you are, but I assume your declarer play beats that of an average player in Germany's first league who has just miscounted his tricks.)

[iviehoff]

pran, on 2011-February-15, 15:49, said:

That is what I might consider "normal" for a player at a lower level, but at this level I would be extremely surprised if the player didn't automatically (almost without thinking) cash his two minor Aces before running spades. The position will then be ♥KT,♦Q and ♣Q in North and the four hearts in South. A small heart to the King now ends the board unless one defender holds ♥Jxxx and the other both minor Kings. Even I would make that play automatically, and I am definitely not a top level player.

It is a normal line, but who cares? It is not the only "normal" line in the sense meant in the laws, which includes "careless" and "inferior". Moreover it is not a 100% line, and it isn't usual to claim all the tricks without qualification when you don't have a 100% line. So it is unlikely that is what he had in mind when he claimed.

[lamford]

iviehoff, on 2011-February-16, 05:32, said:

It is a normal line, but who cares? It is not the only "normal" line in the sense meant in the laws, which includes "careless" and "inferior". Moreover it is not a 100% line, and it isn't usual to claim all the tricks without qualification when you don't have a 100% line. So it is unlikely that is what he had in mind when he claimed.

The failing line of cashing both minor aces, king of spades and then, say, ace of hearts, king of hearts, weighs in at over 85% and is certainly only inferior. I am not sure what the best line is, as it will be hard to squeeze East discarding after dummy, but playing it as a double squeeze is, I believe, a little over 90%. How anybody can give declarer this contract is beyond me. I would rule against a World Champion here.

[Jeremy69A]

7NT down 1. I couldn't find a line(but thanks to DBurn for trying)for more than one down. Reason for one down: Declarer did not state a line. He showed no appreciation that a squeeze might be on. At least he did not try to draw trumps in 7NT which is good.
I would not give him a PP becuasewe 68A says "A contestant also claims when he suggest play be curtalied or when he shows his cards....." He did this so where is the breach? When he fails to state any line he is putting himself in the lap of the gods. Given the comments here some gods are preferable to find oneself in the lap of than others.

[pran]

pran, on 2011-February-15, 15:49, said:

That is what I might consider "normal" for a player at a lower level, but at this level I would be extremely surprised if the player didn't automatically (almost without thinking) cash his two minor Aces before running spades. The position will then be ♥KT,♦Q and ♣Q in North and the four hearts in South. A small heart to the King now ends the board unless one defender holds ♥Jxxx and the other both minor Kings. Even I would make that play automatically, and I am definitely not a top level player.

iviehoff, on 2011-February-16, 05:32, said:

It is a normal line, but who cares? It is not the only "normal" line in the sense meant in the laws, which includes "careless" and "inferior". Moreover it is not a 100% line, and it isn't usual to claim all the tricks without qualification when you don't have a 100% line. So it is unlikely that is what he had in mind when he claimed.

I am not saying that it is the only "normal" line, but IMHO it is definitely not "normal" for a player at this level to just run all his spades without first getting rid of his two minor aces and have the minor Queens for a possible squeeze. If either defender holds both the hearts and at least one of the minor Kings the squeeze will show off by itself.

Other "normal" (although inferior) lines of play include trying one of the minor suit finesses, but as I have said before: I have yet to see a "normal" line that will fail as the cards lie.

According to Law 70 the Director shall not accept from claimer any successful line of play not embraced in the original clarification statement if there is an alternative "normal" line of play that would be less successful. Correspondingly, if the Director is unable to find any such alternative and less successful "normal" line of play he must accept the claim, even if the claim statement is unsatisfactory in any way.

[bluejak]

pran, on 2011-February-16, 08:18, said:

I am not saying that it is the only "normal" line, but IMHO it is definitely not "normal" for a player at this level to just run all his spades without first getting rid of his two minor aces and have the minor Queens for a possible squeeze.

My experience is that even top players do not play for squeeze positions when they have the rest of the tricks.